Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

fckw
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by fckw » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:29 pm
Not sure where you are coming up with these terms "basis enlightenment" and "path enlightenment."
Yeah, I made them up in order to make a point.
The difference between buddhas of the 11th and 12th bhumi and the rest is that the former have not realized all phenomena as a display of pristine consciousness and the latter have. But in general, bhumis measure qualities rather than realizations. In particular, in this book, the 16 stages are analogues of the common paths and stages, but are not actually identical with them.
My question is simply this: Once someone has gone through the fourth vision in terms of Dzogchen is there any sort of further development thereafter? Given that only some buddhas are able to realize the 2nd or 3rd type of rainbow body, there obviously is a "gap" between those who realized the 1st type and the few ones who realize the latter types.

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:57 pm

fckw wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:48 pm
My question is simply this: Once someone has gone through the fourth vision in terms of Dzogchen is there any sort of further development thereafter?
No. At this point you attain samyaksambuddhahood and you are done.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

fckw
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by fckw » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:59 pm

What then makes the difference that some are able to realize a higher level of rainbow body than others?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:09 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:59 pm
What then makes the difference that some are able to realize a higher level of rainbow body than others?
Diligence in this life.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

fckw
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by fckw » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:35 pm

Diligence in doing what? I understand that once the 4th vision is completed, there is no more progress or practice required. Thus, there are 2 possible explanations:
1. The level of realization (i.e. which type of rainbow body) is determined entirely BEFORE the completion of the 4th vision.
2. After completion of the 4th vision, more practice has the potential to lead to a higher type of rainbow body.

Could you explain, please? I’m confused. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, then I would like to know what it is.

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:46 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:35 pm
Diligence in doing what? I understand that once the 4th vision is completed, there is no more progress or practice required. Thus, there are 2 possible explanations:
1. The level of realization (i.e. which type of rainbow body) is determined entirely BEFORE the completion of the 4th vision.
2. After completion of the 4th vision, more practice has the potential to lead to a higher type of rainbow body.

Could you explain, please? I’m confused. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, then I would like to know what it is.
The two kinds of rainbow body are based on whether you completed the fourth vision in this life, or in the bardo of the time of death.

But all this does not matter much. Even if in this life you only got the second vision, you will still wake up, attain buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā, i.e. you will finish the fourth vision there. It just takes a longer time in the bardo depending on how much you practiced in this life. At worst, you will wake up in the nirmanakāya buddhafields in your next life without ever returning to samsara again, but this assumes you barely practiced at all.

But all of this is dependent on confirming vidyā in a direct perception, and that must be heard from one's guru.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Aryjna » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:46 pm
fckw wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:35 pm
Diligence in doing what? I understand that once the 4th vision is completed, there is no more progress or practice required. Thus, there are 2 possible explanations:
1. The level of realization (i.e. which type of rainbow body) is determined entirely BEFORE the completion of the 4th vision.
2. After completion of the 4th vision, more practice has the potential to lead to a higher type of rainbow body.

Could you explain, please? I’m confused. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, then I would like to know what it is.
But all of this is dependent on confirming vidyā in a direct perception, and that must be heard from one's guru.
By confirming vidya you mean being beyond doubt (the second point)? Or is it related to thogal?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:00 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:55 pm

By confirming vidya you mean being beyond doubt (the second point)? Or is it related to thogal?

Both.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Aryjna » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:00 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:55 pm

By confirming vidya you mean being beyond doubt (the second point)? Or is it related to thogal?

Both.
How can it be confirmed by one's guru? By describing to him a specific experience that you think may be rigpa?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:00 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:55 pm

By confirming vidya you mean being beyond doubt (the second point)? Or is it related to thogal?

Both.
How can it be confirmed by one's guru? By describing to him a specific experience that you think may be rigpa?

You confirm it for yourself based on paying attention to the guru's instructions. Rigpa means knowledge. When you know, you know. If you have to ask your teacher it means you don't know. There are two things essential for a Dzogchen practitioner to confirm: a moment of unfabricated consciousness free from contamination with concepts— this is the view, trekchö; and vidyā in a direct perception— this is the path, thogal.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Aryjna » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:00 pm



Both.
How can it be confirmed by one's guru? By describing to him a specific experience that you think may be rigpa?

You confirm it for yourself based on paying attention to the guru's instructions. Rigpa means knowledge. When you know, you know. If you have to ask your teacher it means you don't know. There are two things essential for a Dzogchen practitioner to confirm: a moment of unfabricated consciousness free from contamination with concepts— this is the view, trekchö; and vidyā in a direct perception— this is the path, thogal.
Thanks. What did you mean by 'and that must be heard from one's guru'?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:28 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:11 pm


How can it be confirmed by one's guru? By describing to him a specific experience that you think may be rigpa?

You confirm it for yourself based on paying attention to the guru's instructions. Rigpa means knowledge. When you know, you know. If you have to ask your teacher it means you don't know. There are two things essential for a Dzogchen practitioner to confirm: a moment of unfabricated consciousness free from contamination with concepts— this is the view, trekchö; and vidyā in a direct perception— this is the path, thogal.
Thanks. What did you mean by 'and that must be heard from one's guru'?

You must hear about these things from your teacher, in a proper way, in a proper setting, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Aryjna » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:28 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm



You confirm it for yourself based on paying attention to the guru's instructions. Rigpa means knowledge. When you know, you know. If you have to ask your teacher it means you don't know. There are two things essential for a Dzogchen practitioner to confirm: a moment of unfabricated consciousness free from contamination with concepts— this is the view, trekchö; and vidyā in a direct perception— this is the path, thogal.
Thanks. What did you mean by 'and that must be heard from one's guru'?

You must hear about these things from your teacher, in a proper way, in a proper setting, etc.
Ah yes, that makes sense in any case.

fckw
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by fckw » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:46 pm
fckw wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:35 pm
Diligence in doing what? I understand that once the 4th vision is completed, there is no more progress or practice required. Thus, there are 2 possible explanations:
1. The level of realization (i.e. which type of rainbow body) is determined entirely BEFORE the completion of the 4th vision.
2. After completion of the 4th vision, more practice has the potential to lead to a higher type of rainbow body.

Could you explain, please? I’m confused. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, then I would like to know what it is.
The two kinds of rainbow body are based on whether you completed the fourth vision in this life, or in the bardo of the time of death.

But all this does not matter much. Even if in this life you only got the second vision, you will still wake up, attain buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā, i.e. you will finish the fourth vision there. It just takes a longer time in the bardo depending on how much you practiced in this life. At worst, you will wake up in the nirmanakāya buddhafields in your next life without ever returning to samsara again, but this assumes you barely practiced at all.

But all of this is dependent on confirming vidyā in a direct perception, and that must be heard from one's guru.
Ok, thanks, this makes it much more clear.

fckw
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by fckw » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:16 pm

Now I need to ask again.
To accomplish this it is necessary to do the practice of ‘the four ways of leaving things in their natural simplicity’ (Tib. chokshyak shyi) and through these, to acquire perfect stability in the Trekchö practice. Then will come the ‘four visions of tögal’ which are the natural arising of visions of discs and rays of light, deities and buddha fields. These visions are naturally ready to arise from within the central channel that joins the heart to the eyes. Such an arising from this channel will appear in a gradual process. In the same way that the waxing moon will increase from the first to the fifteenth of the month, these visions will gradually increase—from the simple perception of dots of light to the full array of the vast expanse of the sambhogakaya buddha fields. The manifestation of space and awareness will thus reach its culminating point.

These experiences are not linked with consciousness or intellect as the former experiences were; they are a true manifestation or radiance of awareness. After this, in the same way that the moon decreases and disappears from the fifteenth to the thirtieth of the month, all of these experiences and visions, all phenomena, will gradually come to exhaustion and reabsorb themselves in the Absolute.
(Source: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dzogchen, added highlighting in bold)
I've highlighted two phrases that are actually crucial in my eyes. According to this snippet the whole process is more complicated than commonly talked about.
1. First, the four visions arise up to the moment, where all the three kayas arise fully. (That's how I understand the first highlighted phrase.)
2. Once the fourth vision has culminated, one could say that the process starts to "invert itself", and experiences start to exhaust themselves in the Absolute.

I have never seen any teacher talk about the second point in clear terms.

My question therefore is:
1. When does one say the 4th vision has been completed or realized? At the culmination point (after stage 1 above), or only once stage 2 is completed as well?
2. Does the second stage have an end, or is going on forever? If so, what is the end?
3. If stage 2 has an end, is there a difference between people who die during this exhaustion process, and those who complete it before death? In other words, are the ones with incomplete exhaustion the ones reaching rainbow body during death, whereas the ones having completed exhaustion reaching it already during life?
4. And most importantly: What is the correct practice when one has reached culmination of stage 1 and is now in the exhaustion process? Does further Tögel practice matter at that stage at all?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:57 pm

fckw wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:16 pm

My question therefore is:
1. When does one say the 4th vision has been completed or realized? At the culmination point (after stage 1 above), or only once stage 2 is completed as well?
2. Does the second stage have an end, or is going on forever? If so, what is the end?
3. If stage 2 has an end, is there a difference between people who die during this exhaustion process, and those who complete it before death? In other words, are the ones with incomplete exhaustion the ones reaching rainbow body during death, whereas the ones having completed exhaustion reaching it already during life?
4. And most importantly: What is the correct practice when one has reached culmination of stage 1 and is now in the exhaustion process? Does further Tögel practice matter at that stage at all?
The first part goes up to the third vision.

The second part is the exhaustion of dharmatā.

In part 2, you are still practicing.

You really need to study this with a teacher. It is not beneficial to continue this discussion in a public forum.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

jnanasutra
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by jnanasutra » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:53 pm

IMG_1534.JPG
IMG_1534.JPG (233.43 KiB) Viewed 1778 times
Just got this in today. Going to check it out over the holidays.
When will the rigpa Tangshan and the rigpa rangdrol come out?
Thanks.

jnanasutra
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by jnanasutra » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:55 pm

*rigpa rangshar
sorry, computer spell check got me!
:D

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:05 pm

jnanasutra wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:53 pm
When will the rigpa rangshar and the rigpa rangdrol come out?
Amazon says August 28, 2018.

jnanasutra
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Re: Buddhahood in This Life Transmission: 09/15/17

Post by jnanasutra » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:38 am

1/2 through the book. It is clearly a thogal text. Drawn from the 17 tantras. I am enjoying it :D

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