Difference between rigpa and yeshes

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Starcide
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Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Starcide » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:16 am

Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between rigpa and yeshes? Or point me in the direction of any texts which illuminate these subjects?

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gzodzilpa
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by gzodzilpa » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:34 am

yeshes is a property of rigpa

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Vasana
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Vasana » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:58 pm

To elaborate on the above you often see the words paired as 'rig pa'i ye shes' which afaik is loosely; 'Wisdom [ye shes] of awareness/knowing[rigpa].'


'...It is through the method of settling naturally and effortlessly in the nature of the ground, just as it abides, that the wisdom of awareness is made to manifest directly, and that is why it is called “awareness”, or rigpa.' - 'Commentary on Some Terms from the Great Perfection' by Dongak Chökyi Gyatso.

kun byed rgyal po says;

"Self-arisen wisdom [rang byung ye shes] is the primordial nature of vidyā [rig pa] - as translated and posted elsewhere by Malcolm I think
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Strive
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Strive » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:16 pm

Starcide wrote:Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between rigpa and yeshes? Or point me in the direction of any texts which illuminate these subjects?
welcome to dharmawheel good question

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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Starcide » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:33 am

Thanks for the replies. So as far as I understand, rig pa is the pristine awareness that the ground has ? (it's non-dual with the ground so obviously this word isn't a good fit - I'm uncertain anything in our language is a good fit) ye shes is the wisdom of that awareness that operates in a non-dual way within rig pa?

Contrasted to how ordinary consciousness (nam shes?) that operates on reified sense objects?

Though the above leads me to wonder quite how shes rab is different to ye shes?

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Vasana
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Vasana » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:43 am

Starcide wrote:Thanks for the replies. So as far as I understand, rig pa is the pristine awareness that the ground has ? (it's non-dual with the ground so obviously this word isn't a good fit - I'm uncertain anything in our language is a good fit) ye shes is the wisdom of that awareness that operates in a non-dual way within rig pa?

Contrasted to how ordinary consciousness (nam shes?) that operates on reified sense objects?

Though the above leads me to wonder quite how shes rab is different to ye shes?
These are all good questions. There are a lot of terms which seem like synonyms in one context and as terms with unique meanings in others.

Nam she is simply the consciousness aggregate which apprehends phenomena and It's appearances in a dualistic way. It is expressed as dualistic thought, nam tok. Ye she, afaik, is the pristine wisdom/consciousness aspect of that aggregate and is self-apprent when in a moments equipoise governed by one's rig pa.

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche,

"The state of rigpa is not oblivious; there is a natural brightness that allows anything to be reflected. This reflecting quality is also called rang-tsal, which means natural expression. The natural expression can take two forms: either sherab or namtog, insight or thought.

- The expression moving as sherab is liberated. The expression moving as namtog is confused.-

That makes an enormous difference. Honestly though, in the state of rigpa itself, there is no real movement. When the expression moves as sherab, in the same moment it seemingly moves, it is already liberated**. There is no actual arising.'


* see the '4 modes of liberation' and 'self-liberation' for more on this.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Starcide
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Starcide » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:02 pm

Thanks for this, i believe I'm starting to get my head around the differences :) it's a shame alot of texts don't include the Tibetan for the technical terms in the text.

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conebeckham
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by conebeckham » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:25 pm

Vasana wrote:
Starcide wrote:Thanks for the replies. So as far as I understand, rig pa is the pristine awareness that the ground has ? (it's non-dual with the ground so obviously this word isn't a good fit - I'm uncertain anything in our language is a good fit) ye shes is the wisdom of that awareness that operates in a non-dual way within rig pa?

Contrasted to how ordinary consciousness (nam shes?) that operates on reified sense objects?

Though the above leads me to wonder quite how shes rab is different to ye shes?
These are all good questions. There are a lot of terms which seem like synonyms in one context and as terms with unique meanings in others.

Nam she is simply the consciousness aggregate which apprehends phenomena and It's appearances in a dualistic way. It is expressed as dualistic thought, nam tok. Ye she, afaik, is the pristine wisdom/consciousness aspect of that aggregate and is self-apprent when in a moments equipoise governed by one's rig pa.
Just to add to this, based on my current understanding.
"Rigpa" general means knowledge, as opposed to Ma-Rigpa, or Non-Knowing. So, "Rigpa" is a state of knowing--in this case, one has knowledge of one's natural state, which is Wisdom, or Pristine Awareness.
Vasana wrote:Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche,

"The state of rigpa is not oblivious; there is a natural brightness that allows anything to be reflected. This reflecting quality is also called rang-tsal, which means natural expression. The natural expression can take two forms: either sherab or namtog, insight or thought.

- The expression moving as sherab is liberated. The expression moving as namtog is confused.-

That makes an enormous difference. Honestly though, in the state of rigpa itself, there is no real movement. When the expression moves as sherab, in the same moment it seemingly moves, it is already liberated**. There is no actual arising.'


* see the '4 modes of liberation' and 'self-liberation' for more on this.
Being in a state of Rigpa is being in the state of Knowledge. It's the opposite of being "oblivious," right? If Rangtsal is recognized as Rangtsal, that recognition is an instance of discriminative wisdom, Sherab. This recognition is also based in Rigpa, or based on the state of Knowledge. If Rangtsal is not not recognized, if there is expression as Namtok, then although one may intellectually understand that Namtok is Rangstal, there is no true State of Rigpa in that instance.

Opinion?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:40 pm

There are some interesting discussions of the connections between prajna, yeshe and rigpa, spelled rikpa there, in CTR's "Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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CedarTree
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by CedarTree » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:51 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:There are some interesting discussions of the connections between prajna, yeshe and rigpa, spelled rikpa there, in CTR's "Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness".
Such cool titles!

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Vasana
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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by Vasana » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:25 am

conebeckham wrote:Just to add to this, based on my current understanding.
"Rigpa" general means knowledge, as opposed to Ma-Rigpa, or Non-Knowing. So, "Rigpa" is a state of knowing--in this case, one has knowledge of one's natural state, which is Wisdom, or Pristine Awareness.
Vasana wrote:Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche,

"The state of rigpa is not oblivious; there is a natural brightness that allows anything to be reflected. This reflecting quality is also called rang-tsal, which means natural expression. The natural expression can take two forms: either sherab or namtog, insight or thought.

- The expression moving as sherab is liberated. The expression moving as namtog is confused.-

That makes an enormous difference. Honestly though, in the state of rigpa itself, there is no real movement. When the expression moves as sherab, in the same moment it seemingly moves, it is already liberated**. There is no actual arising.'


* see the '4 modes of liberation' and 'self-liberation' for more on this.
Being in a state of Rigpa is being in the state of Knowledge. It's the opposite of being "oblivious," right? If Rangtsal is recognized as Rangtsal, that recognition is an instance of discriminative wisdom, Sherab. This recognition is also based in Rigpa, or based on the state of Knowledge. If Rangtsal is not not recognized, if there is expression as Namtok, then although one may intellectually understand that Namtok is Rangstal, there is no true State of Rigpa in that instance.

Opinion?
Yeah that's how I understand it too with 'discriminative wisdom' being devoid of subject and object polarities like a wave and the ocean, a dream and the dreaming mind etc. An intellectual understanding that thoughts and emotions are the empty appearances of mind's expressive energy isn't the same as actually experiencing them as such in equipoise. Longchenpa warns of these kind of faults quite extensively in his writings. Settling for an intellectual understanding is what leads some to believe that dualistic afflictions are themselves wisdom even when experienced dualistically. With this is also the risk of misconstruing the notions of 'non-mediation' and 'nothing needs to be done' to the point of nihilism where even the key point of 'non-distraction' from recognition is tossed aside. Obviously self-honesty on the part of the practitioner is needed here.

'If some element of confusion diverges from your fundamentally unconditioned nature, then without question you are not engaged in yoga.' - Longchenpa - Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission

This is why the metaphors of the 4 modes of liberation (grol lugs) or the 'coemergence of thought' in the Mahamudra system are particularly useful in clarifying what the state and direct experience of self-liberation is actually like experientially (& by association, rig pa, ye she, shes rab). Since knowledge [rigpa] and recogntion of one's state in a particular instance results in the self-liberation of any namtok /thought occurrence /movement in that particular instance, like 'recognizing someone you know in a crowd', 'snowflakes landing on warm water', 'a snake uncoiling it's self' etc. Although on one level these modalities of liberation are inseparable, the manner and corresponding metaphors of liberation (along with how frequently they occur) can also reflect the level of familiarity and non-distraction an individual has with the natural state.

'Self-liberation and liberation upon arising are not characteristics of thought; they are what happens when the nature of thought is recognized. So it's not the case that you either recognize the self-liberation or don't; self-liberation is the result of recognition.' - Khenchen Thrnagu Rinpoche in Pointing out the Dharmakaya:Teachings on the Ninth Karmapa's Text
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Difference between rigpa and yeshes

Post by ugyen » Sat May 19, 2018 5:25 am

rigpa and yeshes in simple, as per my understanding would be just rigpa is base(primordial wisdom) and yeshe is the potential/quality of rigpa. for example say rigpa is bulb/tube light and its potential/quality to manifest light and illuminate self and others is yeshe. so many teachings say rigpa-yeshe and marigpa difference is just like that of day time clarity and night time blindness.

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