enlightment in one life

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CapNCrunch
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by CapNCrunch » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:46 pm

The Buddha recommended relinquishing all cravings, desire, becoming, attachment, to what we call 'our experience'. This also means relinquishing the desire for enlightenment and the belief in any satisfaction in things. Are you up for that?
This is the Dzogchen forum. The comment was directed to a specific view that could be a deviation in the practice of Dzogchen - not a suggestion that anyone cultivate desire or attachment to some imagined goal - to say nothing of belief which is useless in this context.

Dzogchen purports to be a vehicle of liberation in one skull. If someone considers themselves a practitioner, it would behoove them to at least take the teaching on its own terms. I stand by my statement the view that liberation in one life is "bullshit", or "I'm a jerk in samsara and will never amount to anything at all, poor despicable me" is an anathema in the practice of Dzogchen.

For the record, I'm not saying Javier really holds this view. His comment was light-hearted and made in the context of a lot of discussion back and forth about emanations and different types of realization. I quoted it to make this point because I've noticed in myself for sure, and I at least suspect in others based on these types of comments, a tendency to bring these types of views to bear in the practice of Dzogchen.

It's not that helpful to cherry pick specific quotes and then erect a straw man as you're doing in this case, taking something very context specific and applying it to general Mahayana. The use of scare quotes notwithstanding, we must use language to communicate and I think my comment was, or should be pretty obvious to the audience for which it's intended.
“I say good-bye to hope, but I also say goodbye to hope's disappointment.”

David Levithan

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:53 pm

my point is that there is no reason to relly on enlightenment as a goal
and that the misunderstandigs on this only makes mind "to bite it's tail"

the concept of enlightenment
the concept of what people think is enligntenment
the concept of what schoolars think is enlightenment
the concept of what tulkus think is enlightenment
the concept of what is recorded or stated that is enlightenment
and what is not, etc.

my point here is that there is no final goal once we recognize

Once i wrote and asked my teacher Namkhai Norbu "¿is the Rainbowbody like reflations in a mirror?" and he wrote back saying "Dear Javier, yes, even the Rainbow body is like reflations in a mirror. Ciao, ciao!! NN.". This always "puts my feets on the ground", and also when i share it to others also helps them. It is very precious because we tend to believe that we are going somewhere, or have to please someone, etc. and it says very clearly that even -one of- the top level of realizations has the same base as our ordinary state. So what's to be experimented is an awarness, confirmation, proof; not a goal pursuit to be done.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:12 pm

:good:

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florin
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:17 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:53 pm
my point is that there is no reason to relly on enlightenment as a goal
and that the misunderstandigs on this only makes mind "to bite it's tail"

the concept of enlightenment
the concept of what people think is enligntenment
the concept of what schoolars think is enlightenment
the concept of what tulkus think is enlightenment
the concept of what is recorded or stated that is enlightenment
and what is not, etc.

my point here is that there is no final goal once we recognize

Once i wrote and asked my teacher Namkhai Norbu "¿is the Rainbowbody like reflations in a mirror?" and he wrote back saying "Dear Javier, yes, even the Rainbow body is like reflations in a mirror. Ciao, ciao!! NN.". This always "puts my feets on the ground", and also when i share it to others also helps them. It is very precious because we tend to believe that we are going somewhere, or have to please someone, etc. and it says very clearly that even -one of- the top level of realizations has the same base as our ordinary state. So what's to be experimented is an awarness, confirmation, proof; not a goal pursuit to be done.

Some tantras like for example the sems de tantras are very specific and clear about what enlightenment is.
But they dont speak about what enlightenment is not... :smile: :juggling:
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Josef
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:40 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:53 pm
my point is that there is no reason to relly on enlightenment as a goal
and that the misunderstandigs on this only makes mind "to bite it's tail"

the concept of enlightenment
the concept of what people think is enligntenment
the concept of what schoolars think is enlightenment
the concept of what tulkus think is enlightenment
the concept of what is recorded or stated that is enlightenment
and what is not, etc.

my point here is that there is no final goal once we recognize

Once i wrote and asked my teacher Namkhai Norbu "¿is the Rainbowbody like reflations in a mirror?" and he wrote back saying "Dear Javier, yes, even the Rainbow body is like reflations in a mirror. Ciao, ciao!! NN.". This always "puts my feets on the ground", and also when i share it to others also helps them. It is very precious because we tend to believe that we are going somewhere, or have to please someone, etc. and it says very clearly that even -one of- the top level of realizations has the same base as our ordinary state. So what's to be experimented is an awarness, confirmation, proof; not a goal pursuit to be done.

Some tantras like for example the sems de tantras are very specific and clear about what enlightenment is.
But they dont speak about what enlightenment is not... :smile: :juggling:
The tantras speak exhaustively on what enlightenment is not.
You can see this in the quotes selected from tantras throughout the works of Longchenpa.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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florin
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:40 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:53 pm
my point is that there is no reason to relly on enlightenment as a goal
and that the misunderstandigs on this only makes mind "to bite it's tail"

the concept of enlightenment
the concept of what people think is enligntenment
the concept of what schoolars think is enlightenment
the concept of what tulkus think is enlightenment
the concept of what is recorded or stated that is enlightenment
and what is not, etc.

my point here is that there is no final goal once we recognize

Once i wrote and asked my teacher Namkhai Norbu "¿is the Rainbowbody like reflations in a mirror?" and he wrote back saying "Dear Javier, yes, even the Rainbow body is like reflations in a mirror. Ciao, ciao!! NN.". This always "puts my feets on the ground", and also when i share it to others also helps them. It is very precious because we tend to believe that we are going somewhere, or have to please someone, etc. and it says very clearly that even -one of- the top level of realizations has the same base as our ordinary state. So what's to be experimented is an awarness, confirmation, proof; not a goal pursuit to be done.

Some tantras like for example the sems de tantras are very specific and clear about what enlightenment is.
But they dont speak about what enlightenment is not... :smile: :juggling:
The tantras speak exhaustively on what enlightenment is not.
You can see this in the quotes selected from tantras throughout the works of Longchenpa.
You are obviously talking nonsense.
Reread my post.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Josef
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:04 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:40 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:17 pm



Some tantras like for example the sems de tantras are very specific and clear about what enlightenment is.
But they dont speak about what enlightenment is not... :smile: :juggling:
The tantras speak exhaustively on what enlightenment is not.
You can see this in the quotes selected from tantras throughout the works of Longchenpa.
You are obviously talking nonsense.
Reread my post.
I read it again.
My response is the same.
Exhaustive. The tantras, commentaries, and upadesha instructions repeatedly remind us what buddhahood is not.
Unless of course you were trying to convey sarcasm in text form.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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florin
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:04 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:40 pm


The tantras speak exhaustively on what enlightenment is not.
You can see this in the quotes selected from tantras throughout the works of Longchenpa.
You are obviously talking nonsense.
Reread my post.
I read it again.
My response is the same.
Exhaustive. The tantras, commentaries, and upadesha instructions repeatedly remind us what buddhahood is not.
Unless of course you were trying to convey sarcasm in text form.
Kunjed Gyalpo collection speaks extensively about how the universe is already enlightened and how there is nothing outside of it.
You are obviously not familiar with this group of tantras.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Josef
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:34 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:04 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm


You are obviously talking nonsense.
Reread my post.
I read it again.
My response is the same.
Exhaustive. The tantras, commentaries, and upadesha instructions repeatedly remind us what buddhahood is not.
Unless of course you were trying to convey sarcasm in text form.
Kunjed Gyalpo collection speaks extensively about how the universe is already enlightened and how there is nothing outside of it.
You are obviously not familiar with this group of tantras.
All of the tantras speak of this (although "the universe is already enlightened" is off)...the opposite is included in this description.
And given as a separate topic.
Repeatedly, exhaustively.
Longchenpa must have really confused (sarcasm).
It's odd that one would argue that the tantras do not talk about the condition of sentient beings.
Your familiarity jab rings with great irony.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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florin
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:34 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:04 pm

I read it again.
My response is the same.
Exhaustive. The tantras, commentaries, and upadesha instructions repeatedly remind us what buddhahood is not.
Unless of course you were trying to convey sarcasm in text form.
Kunjed Gyalpo collection speaks extensively about how the universe is already enlightened and how there is nothing outside of it.
You are obviously not familiar with this group of tantras.
All of the tantras speak of this...the opposite is included in this description.
And given as a separate topic.
Repeatedly, exhaustively.
Longchenpa must have really confused (sarcasm).

Your familiarity jab rings with great irony.
If non enlightenment is included in the description of where we understand that the entire universe is already enlightened it means that this so called non enlightenment is nothing more than a rolpa manifestation of enlightenment and not something different or separate.

In this same context the condition of sentient beings is exactly identical with the primordial enlightenment.
All classes of beings, all worlds are manifestation of enlightenment.
Last edited by florin on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Josef
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:51 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:34 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 pm


Kunjed Gyalpo collection speaks extensively about how the universe is already enlightened and how there is nothing outside of it.
You are obviously not familiar with this group of tantras.
All of the tantras speak of this...the opposite is included in this description.
And given as a separate topic.
Repeatedly, exhaustively.
Longchenpa must have really confused (sarcasm).

Your familiarity jab rings with great irony.
If non enlightenment is included in the description of where we understand that the entire universe is already enlightened it means that this so called non enlightenment is nothing more than a rolpa manifestation of enlightenment and not something different or separate.
There you go.
There are still abundant descriptions of what enlightenment is not that are explicit in the texts.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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smcj
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by smcj » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:03 pm

In this same context the condition of sentient beings is exactly identical with the primordial enlightenment.
All classes of beings, all worlds are manifestation of enlightenment.
Is Malcolm on board with this view? Somehow I doubt it.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

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florin
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:04 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:51 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:34 pm


All of the tantras speak of this...the opposite is included in this description.
And given as a separate topic.
Repeatedly, exhaustively.
Longchenpa must have really confused (sarcasm).

Your familiarity jab rings with great irony.
If non enlightenment is included in the description of where we understand that the entire universe is already enlightened it means that this so called non enlightenment is nothing more than a rolpa manifestation of enlightenment and not something different or separate.
There you go.
There are still abundant descriptions of what enlightenment is not that are explicit in the texts.
You seem to be hell bent in going ahead with "your texts" or "the texts".
There is no such language employed in KG.
You don't seem to understand.
To speak of descriptionts of what enlightenment is not is to create separate conceptual categories about things that do not exist.
Since everything, all obstacles all errors all non understandings all types of ignorance are nothing more than energetical manifestations of enlightenment it would be absurd to generate new categories for things that are separate from primordial state.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Josef
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:07 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:04 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:51 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 pm


If non enlightenment is included in the description of where we understand that the entire universe is already enlightened it means that this so called non enlightenment is nothing more than a rolpa manifestation of enlightenment and not something different or separate.
There you go.
There are still abundant descriptions of what enlightenment is not that are explicit in the texts.
You seem to be hell bent in going ahead with "your texts" or "the texts".
There is no such language employed in KG.
You don't seem to understand.
To speak of descriptionts of what enlightenment is not is to create separate conceptual categories about things that do not exist.
Since everything, all obstacles all errors all non understandings all types of ignorance are nothing more than energetical manifestations of enlightenment it would be absurd to generate new categories for things that are separate from primordial state.
Im just relaying information that is quite obviously a part of the discourse.
Check Longchenpas references in his autocommentary to the choying dzod or tsig don dzod.
The KG isnt the end all be all, or the only tantra. The commentaries of course, go even further into this discussion.

You're grossly minimizing the subject.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
florin
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:12 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:07 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:04 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:51 pm


There you go.
There are still abundant descriptions of what enlightenment is not that are explicit in the texts.
You seem to be hell bent in going ahead with "your texts" or "the texts".
There is no such language employed in KG.
You don't seem to understand.
To speak of descriptionts of what enlightenment is not is to create separate conceptual categories about things that do not exist.
Since everything, all obstacles all errors all non understandings all types of ignorance are nothing more than energetical manifestations of enlightenment it would be absurd to generate new categories for things that are separate from primordial state.
Im just relaying information that is quite obviously a part of the discourse.
Check Longchenpas references in his autocommentary to the choying dzod or tsig don dzod.
The KG isnt the end all be all, or the only tantra.
You're grossly minimizing the subject.
Sure.. but you forget that in my OP i started with the mention
"some tantras.... like for example sems de tantras"
So i wasn't talking generally...
Indeed... Some tantras from the upadesha class do talk about what you are suggesting.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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smcj
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by smcj » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:15 pm

Since everything, all obstacles all errors all non understandings all types of ignorance are nothing more than energetical manifestations of enlightenment it would be absurd to generate new categories for things that are separate from primordial state.
Isn't that called monism?

(The emperor has no clothes.)
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

User avatar
florin
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:18 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:15 pm
Since everything, all obstacles all errors all non understandings all types of ignorance are nothing more than energetical manifestations of enlightenment it would be absurd to generate new categories for things that are separate from primordial state.
Isn't that called monism?

(The emperor has no clothes.)

Yes. Probably.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

krodha
Posts: 2173
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by krodha » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:33 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 pm
Kunjed Gyalpo collection speaks extensively about how the universe is already enlightened and how there is nothing outside of it.
You are obviously not familiar with this group of tantras.
The appearances that allegedly constitute the universe are originally pure and naturally perfected, but it would be incorrect to say the universe is itself enlightened. Especially given that the universe is a false imputation and a cognitive error.

And although the appearances that allegedly constitute the universe are originally pure and naturally perfected, so-called enlightenment or awakening [bodhi] does not occur until the nature of those appearances are recognized.

Enlightenment or awakening occurs in the mind, and not elsewhere.

The view that anything is already enlightened is expressly rejected in Dzogchen.

Josef
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:35 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:12 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:07 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:04 pm


You seem to be hell bent in going ahead with "your texts" or "the texts".
There is no such language employed in KG.
You don't seem to understand.
To speak of descriptionts of what enlightenment is not is to create separate conceptual categories about things that do not exist.
Since everything, all obstacles all errors all non understandings all types of ignorance are nothing more than energetical manifestations of enlightenment it would be absurd to generate new categories for things that are separate from primordial state.
Im just relaying information that is quite obviously a part of the discourse.
Check Longchenpas references in his autocommentary to the choying dzod or tsig don dzod.
The KG isnt the end all be all, or the only tantra.
You're grossly minimizing the subject.
Sure.. but you forget that in my OP i started with the mention
"some tantras.... like for example sems de tantras"
So i wasn't talking generally...
Indeed... Some tantras from the upadesha class do talk about what you are suggesting.
A three minute revisitation to Jim Valby's KG volumes reveals a pretty staggering amount of evidence to the contrary of your original assertion as well.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
florin
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:41 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:35 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:12 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:07 pm


Im just relaying information that is quite obviously a part of the discourse.
Check Longchenpas references in his autocommentary to the choying dzod or tsig don dzod.
The KG isnt the end all be all, or the only tantra.
You're grossly minimizing the subject.
Sure.. but you forget that in my OP i started with the mention
"some tantras.... like for example sems de tantras"
So i wasn't talking generally...
Indeed... Some tantras from the upadesha class do talk about what you are suggesting.
A three minute revisitation to Jim Valby's KG volume reveals a pretty staggering amount of evidence to the contrary of your original assertion as well.
Where exactly?
Volume and page...
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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