enlightment in one life

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lelopa
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by lelopa » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:17 am

Rick wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:32 pm
If you enter into Dzogchen teachings in a real sense, you wont be interested in other teachings at all.
But there are SO MANY beautiful flowers to smell ... !

Image
CHNN sometimes said about some terma teachings: I am very interested in this! :spy:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:38 am

lelopa wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:17 am

CHNN sometimes said about some terma teachings: I am very interested in this! :spy:
Sure, if it has to do with Dzogchen, why not?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

chimechodra
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Location: Boulder, CO

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by chimechodra » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 am
chimechodra wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm


Practice rushen.
Any rushen in particular? I imagine purification of the six lokas in particular would be very helpful?
One does them all, step by step, starting with rushan of the body. It is of some import to go in this sequence.
Where can I learn more about this? The only DC book that I can find that really touches on this is "Teachings on Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins". Is there another DC book that explains more about the rushen sequence/order, etc.?

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:50 pm

Rick wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:32 pm
If you enter into Dzogchen teachings in a real sense, you wont be interested in other teachings at all.
But there are SO MANY beautiful flowers to smell ... !

Image
I think Loppon is referring to those who have the motivation taught by Dzogchen masters, basically standard Mahayana motivation. I think your motivation is a little different.

Seeker12
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Seeker12 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm
Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:


Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
In terms of a conceptual understanding of such statements, how do you reconcile such a statement with the idea that many Dzogchen masters have had numerous incarnations? Even ChNN is considered to be a tulku himself from a previous Dzogchen master.

Is it simply considered, for example, that he is then an emanation of a Buddha? In other words, if that's not the case, how could there be more than two 'births' from such individuals? Does it simply have to do with subtle understandings of what birth and death mean, what Buddhahood is, etc?
Better than if there were thousands of meaningless words is
one meaningful word that on hearing brings peace. Dhp

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:02 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm
Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:


Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
In terms of a conceptual understanding of such statements, how do you reconcile such a statement with the idea that many Dzogchen masters have had numerous incarnations? Even ChNN is considered to be a tulku himself from a previous Dzogchen master.

Is it simply considered, for example, that he is then an emanation of a Buddha? In other words, if that's not the case, how could there be more than two 'births' from such individuals? Does it simply have to do with subtle understandings of what birth and death mean, what Buddhahood is, etc?

Tulkus are something relative, it is a social phenomena. When a Dzogchen practitioner passes away, each grade of practitioner will have a given number of emanations, will remain in the bardo of dharmatā for a set length of time and so on. It is not necessary to recognize all these emanations as tulkus. Ordinary people are also recognized as tulkus. Actually, all of us are tulkus. Some of us are tulkus of samsara, others tulkus of nirvana.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Tolya M
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Tolya M » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:46 pm

There is trikaya even on 1-st bhumi but not as developed as on the 10-th bhumi for ex. (according to yogacara of Asanga). Nothing surprizing that there are tulkus with strange conduct. As for me I don't believe that all Karmapas, HHDLs etc. were lineages of the same consiousness. There could be students or recognized as a "loan" for the future, due to the situation etc. It's hard to say something in a billion of billion worlds :mrgreen:

PS bodhisattva never leaves kama-loka. So there are births but not completedly due to karma\klesa.

Seeker12
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Seeker12 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:02 pm
Seeker12 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm


Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:


Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
In terms of a conceptual understanding of such statements, how do you reconcile such a statement with the idea that many Dzogchen masters have had numerous incarnations? Even ChNN is considered to be a tulku himself from a previous Dzogchen master.

Is it simply considered, for example, that he is then an emanation of a Buddha? In other words, if that's not the case, how could there be more than two 'births' from such individuals? Does it simply have to do with subtle understandings of what birth and death mean, what Buddhahood is, etc?

Tulkus are something relative, it is a social phenomena. When a Dzogchen practitioner passes away, each grade of practitioner will have a given number of emanations, will remain in the bardo of dharmatā for a set length of time and so on. It is not necessary to recognize all these emanations as tulkus. Ordinary people are also recognized as tulkus. Actually, all of us are tulkus. Some of us are tulkus of samsara, others tulkus of nirvana.
Thank you for responding.

In general, my interest is not in whether or not someone is recognized as a tulku but rather trying to fit together the teachings coherently.

So with that said, a further question/clarification. If we take the case of ChNN, he is said to be the reincarnation of Adzom Drukpa. As I recall, he didn't particularly like this idea until he wrote a commentary which was almost word-for-word identical to that of a commentary by Adzom Drukpa, at which point he maybe accepted this to be true.

In another thread, as I recall, you have said that Dharmakirti argues that mindstreams are distinct. I will presume that you hold this view as well, although it wasn't explicitly said.

If this is the case, then, are we to understand that ChNN is the same mindstream as Adzom Drukpa? Or is ChNN simply one of many emanation bodies of Adzom Drukpa, the number of which is determined by the grade of his realization? Or are we to consider that ChNN is actually a fully enlightened Buddha himself that is simply manifesting as he is, which would mean that Adzom Drukpa did in fact achieve Buddhahood either during his life or shortly afterwards.

If none of those apply, and ChNN is in fact A) the same mindstream as Adzom Drukpa, and B) not a samyaksambuddha either currently or at least during this life, then I don't see how the teachings on all Dzogchen practitioners attaining samyaksambodhi in this life or shortly afterwards really fit together.

Of course, another option would be that the two are actually not related at all - that they are separate mindstreams - and the whole 'tulku' or 'reincarnation' aspect is simply mistaken.

I hope my question is clear. Thanks for any consideration.
Better than if there were thousands of meaningless words is
one meaningful word that on hearing brings peace. Dhp

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:51 pm

Adzom Drukpa is also a tulku, ultimately of the Drukpa Kagyu polymath, Pema Karpo.

A bodhisattva on the first bodhisattva stage can have 100 emanations. I assume all these emanations are independent, but should they choose, they can be aware of each other since in some sense they are one continuum.

Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:02 pm
Seeker12 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:29 pm


In terms of a conceptual understanding of such statements, how do you reconcile such a statement with the idea that many Dzogchen masters have had numerous incarnations? Even ChNN is considered to be a tulku himself from a previous Dzogchen master.

Is it simply considered, for example, that he is then an emanation of a Buddha? In other words, if that's not the case, how could there be more than two 'births' from such individuals? Does it simply have to do with subtle understandings of what birth and death mean, what Buddhahood is, etc?

Tulkus are something relative, it is a social phenomena. When a Dzogchen practitioner passes away, each grade of practitioner will have a given number of emanations, will remain in the bardo of dharmatā for a set length of time and so on. It is not necessary to recognize all these emanations as tulkus. Ordinary people are also recognized as tulkus. Actually, all of us are tulkus. Some of us are tulkus of samsara, others tulkus of nirvana.
Thank you for responding.

In general, my interest is not in whether or not someone is recognized as a tulku but rather trying to fit together the teachings coherently.

So with that said, a further question/clarification. If we take the case of ChNN, he is said to be the reincarnation of Adzom Drukpa. As I recall, he didn't particularly like this idea until he wrote a commentary which was almost word-for-word identical to that of a commentary by Adzom Drukpa, at which point he maybe accepted this to be true.

In another thread, as I recall, you have said that Dharmakirti argues that mindstreams are distinct. I will presume that you hold this view as well, although it wasn't explicitly said.

If this is the case, then, are we to understand that ChNN is the same mindstream as Adzom Drukpa? Or is ChNN simply one of many emanation bodies of Adzom Drukpa, the number of which is determined by the grade of his realization? Or are we to consider that ChNN is actually a fully enlightened Buddha himself that is simply manifesting as he is, which would mean that Adzom Drukpa did in fact achieve Buddhahood either during his life or shortly afterwards.

If none of those apply, and ChNN is in fact A) the same mindstream as Adzom Drukpa, and B) not a samyaksambuddha either currently or at least during this life, then I don't see how the teachings on all Dzogchen practitioners attaining samyaksambodhi in this life or shortly afterwards really fit together.

Of course, another option would be that the two are actually not related at all - that they are separate mindstreams - and the whole 'tulku' or 'reincarnation' aspect is simply mistaken.

I hope my question is clear. Thanks for any consideration.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Ricky
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Ricky » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
What happens to those lazy practitioners who receive transmission but are never able to to see the direct perception of vidya? Will they continue to take rebirth in the 6 realms like everyone else?

Crazywisdom
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:28 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:50 pm
sometimes i think that "ilumination in one life" is pure bullshit,
we hear "this one is emanation of this one, and that one is emanation of that one" ha ha ha ha

so seems to be that enlightening is only for emanations (laughing)

how ever, what is enlightenment? it is a title? a kind of conclution? something that we define as "not definable"??

i can only say that i don't know, and don't care very much
but definitions and enlightenment planning is pure bullshit to me.

:cheers:
It’s about letting go of whims and seeing the positive point. For example, if you ever thought about killing your wife, but didn’t, because you Understood the harm in it and the benefit of her life then you got one point of dharma and now you understand one can expand upon that point. So enlightenment cannot be bullshit.
Delete my account

Crazywisdom
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:30 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:53 pm
my point is that there is no reason to relly on enlightenment as a goal
and that the misunderstandigs on this only makes mind "to bite it's tail"

the concept of enlightenment
the concept of what people think is enligntenment
the concept of what schoolars think is enlightenment
the concept of what tulkus think is enlightenment
the concept of what is recorded or stated that is enlightenment
and what is not, etc.

my point here is that there is no final goal once we recognize

Once i wrote and asked my teacher Namkhai Norbu "¿is the Rainbowbody like reflations in a mirror?" and he wrote back saying "Dear Javier, yes, even the Rainbow body is like reflations in a mirror. Ciao, ciao!! NN.". This always "puts my feets on the ground", and also when i share it to others also helps them. It is very precious because we tend to believe that we are going somewhere, or have to please someone, etc. and it says very clearly that even -one of- the top level of realizations has the same base as our ordinary state. So what's to be experimented is an awarness, confirmation, proof; not a goal pursuit to be done.
You’re face has to become very bright to see a rainbow body in the mirror.
Delete my account

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:41 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
What happens to those lazy practitioners who receive transmission but are never able to to see the direct perception of vidya? Will they continue to take rebirth in the 6 realms like everyone else?
Eventually, sooner rather than later, they will meet the teachings again and have another go at it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Ricky
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Ricky » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:41 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm


You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
What happens to those lazy practitioners who receive transmission but are never able to to see the direct perception of vidya? Will they continue to take rebirth in the 6 realms like everyone else?
Eventually, sooner rather than later, they will meet the teachings again and have another go at it.
In that case it would be a good idea to combine pure land practice with dzogchen in order to avoid more rebirth in samsaric realms?

Josef
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:11 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:41 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:32 pm

What happens to those lazy practitioners who receive transmission but are never able to to see the direct perception of vidya? Will they continue to take rebirth in the 6 realms like everyone else?
Eventually, sooner rather than later, they will meet the teachings again and have another go at it.
In that case it would be a good idea to combine pure land practice with dzogchen in order to avoid more rebirth in samsaric realms?
It’s already included.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Ricky
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Ricky » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:11 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:41 pm


Eventually, sooner rather than later, they will meet the teachings again and have another go at it.
In that case it would be a good idea to combine pure land practice with dzogchen in order to avoid more rebirth in samsaric realms?
It’s already included.
You don't need any kind of realization to go to sukhavati in standard pure land practice.

Josef
Posts: 1808
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:27 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:11 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:05 pm

In that case it would be a good idea to combine pure land practice with dzogchen in order to avoid more rebirth in samsaric realms?
It’s already included.
You don't need any kind of realization to go to sukhavati in standard pure land practice.
But you need the conditions, which are included in Dzogchen transmission.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Ricky
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Ricky » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:41 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:27 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:11 pm

It’s already included.
You don't need any kind of realization to go to sukhavati in standard pure land practice.
But you need the conditions, which are included in Dzogchen transmission.
What is it meant by "direct perception of vidya"? That sounds like a hefty requirement.

Josef
Posts: 1808
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:47 pm

Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:41 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:27 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 pm

You don't need any kind of realization to go to sukhavati in standard pure land practice.
But you need the conditions, which are included in Dzogchen transmission.
What is it meant by "direct perception of vidya"? That sounds like a hefty requirement.
Direct perception of vidhya is recognition of the natural state.
One can receive transmission but not have that recognition immediately. This doesn’t mean one didn’t “receive” transmission.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26070
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:05 am

Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:41 pm
Ricky wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:32 pm

What happens to those lazy practitioners who receive transmission but are never able to to see the direct perception of vidya? Will they continue to take rebirth in the 6 realms like everyone else?
Eventually, sooner rather than later, they will meet the teachings again and have another go at it.
In that case it would be a good idea to combine pure land practice with dzogchen in order to avoid more rebirth in samsaric realms?
Or any other secondary practice which may be found in Buddhadharma, if you like. It is up to you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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