enlightment in one life

krodha
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by krodha » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:44 pm

There is no "primordial enlightenment."

There is only primordial purity.

Enlightenment [awakening] is an event that occurs when that primordial purity is recognized.

krodha
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by krodha » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:49 pm

And then buddhahood is what occurs when one's enlightenment [awakening] is ripened to its fullest extent via a complete exhaustion of afflictive and adventitious obscurations.

Therefore the title of this thread should really be "buddhahood in one life" since enlightenment [awakening] in one life is simply entering the path of seeing.

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Josef
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Josef » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:10 am

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:41 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:35 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:12 pm


Sure.. but you forget that in my OP i started with the mention
"some tantras.... like for example sems de tantras"
So i wasn't talking generally...
Indeed... Some tantras from the upadesha class do talk about what you are suggesting.
A three minute revisitation to Jim Valby's KG volume reveals a pretty staggering amount of evidence to the contrary of your original assertion as well.
Where exactly?
Volume and page...
Volume one is a good place to start.
Reading from "Realms of Samsara" p.121 onward it is pretty difficult to argue that the KG doesnt discuss the condition of sentient beings (the condition of not being enlightened).
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

smcj
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by smcj » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:07 am

krodha wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:44 pm
There is no "primordial enlightenment."

There is only primordial purity.

Enlightenment [awakening] is an event that occurs when that primordial purity is recognized.
Malcolm wrote:The distinction is basically this: in cittamatra, phenomena are mental events. The way Lonchenpa explains it is like this. Bodhicitta, awakened mind, is like space, it is the basis, but it is not established in anyway. Its potential or energy [rtsal] arises like the face of a mirror. The display of that potentiality is like the eight examples of illusion. Since the basis, its potential and display are not themselves established because they are all empty, they are nondual. These three are conventionally distinguished because of appearances. Thus, bodhicitta, potentiality and the display are neither single nor plural in terms of their essence, nevertheless, just like the reflections in the mirror cannot be said to be either the same nor different than the mirror's power to reflect, it is understood that the imputations which are the display of the potential of bodhicitta also do not exist either inside or outside of, and hence these appearances are called "nonexistent, clear appearances." Indeed, nothing at all is established in anyway.
(formatting mine)

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=21104&p=311719#p311719
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

krodha
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by krodha » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:04 am

smcj wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:07 am
krodha wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:44 pm
There is no "primordial enlightenment."

There is only primordial purity.

Enlightenment [awakening] is an event that occurs when that primordial purity is recognized.
Malcolm wrote:The distinction is basically this: in cittamatra, phenomena are mental events. The way Lonchenpa explains it is like this. Bodhicitta, awakened mind, is like space, it is the basis, but it is not established in anyway. Its potential or energy [rtsal] arises like the face of a mirror. The display of that potentiality is like the eight examples of illusion. Since the basis, its potential and display are not themselves established because they are all empty, they are nondual. These three are conventionally distinguished because of appearances. Thus, bodhicitta, potentiality and the display are neither single nor plural in terms of their essence, nevertheless, just like the reflections in the mirror cannot be said to be either the same nor different than the mirror's power to reflect, it is understood that the imputations which are the display of the potential of bodhicitta also do not exist either inside or outside of, and hence these appearances are called "nonexistent, clear appearances." Indeed, nothing at all is established in anyway.
(formatting mine)

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=21104&p=311719#p311719
What of it? Bodhicitta is the basis. Which means it is the basis for the path, i.e., it must be recognized in order to practice the authentic path.

Bodhicitta in this context means the nature of mind. Which is again, originally pure and naturally perfected.

Awakening or enlightenment occurs when that nature is recognized.

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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by MalaBeads » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:32 am

People say that you must see life like a dream. But Buddha said, "I am awake." Awake, not dreaming. Wake up people!
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Yuren » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm

So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm

Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:


Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Yuren
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Yuren » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm
Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:


Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
What % of those manage to attain it in this lifetime? Obviously you can't know but if you had to take a guess?

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Rick
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Rick » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm
Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:

Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
What about the Ferdinands of this world who swoop in and sniff deeply (and ecstatically) from Dzogchen, then from Advaita, then from Krishnamurti, then back to Dzogchen, and so on? Are we invited to the buddhahood party?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Vasana
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Vasana » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:36 pm

Why not just seal the deal and invite yourself fully if its possible? Since Buddhahood is for the benefit of all beings where countless emanations are possible and since other paths (to my knowledge) don't make such universal declarations and demonstrations of compassion for all beings, isn't it the ethical choice to pursue Buddhahood properly?

At least until you have ascertained the correct meditation at which point you are at then at liberty to see for yourself if this path actually enables you to render thoughts and emotions as harmless or not. Then you can also see if following Advaita also enables or enhances that meditation and if Advaita outlays in as much detail if that fruit results in the endless benefit for beings.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Rick
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Rick » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:57 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:36 pm
Why not just seal the deal and invite yourself fully if its possible?
I want to say "I'm not a joiner ... more of a repeat visitor, like an uncle who suddenly appears and is 100% there, then just as suddenly vanishes and is 100% gone." But of course that's just a conceptual underpinning I sometimes identify with.

So: I dunno, Vasana. Maybe I'm too lazy, not serious enough, don't care enough about others (insufficient bodhicitta). Or, to be fair, maybe I'm too critical/skeptical to make the subtle leaps of faith necessary for adhering to a rigorous path, or too infused with Krishnamurtian "Truth is a pathless land" to surrender to a path, any path.

In any case, I continue to be Ferdinand the Bull wandering the countryside from luvverly flower to luvverly flower ... my "path" whatever zig-zag I happen to have taken over the past N months, years, decades.

And, you know, "One must think Sisyph// ... umm, I mean Ferdinand(!) happy" ... right?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Vasana
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Vasana » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:57 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:36 pm
Why not just seal the deal and invite yourself fully if its possible?
I want to say "I'm not a joiner ... more of a repeat visitor, like an uncle who suddenly appears and is 100% there, then just as suddenly vanishes and is 100% gone." But of course that's just a conceptual underpinning I sometimes identify with.

So: I dunno, Vasana. Maybe I'm too lazy, not serious enough, don't care enough about others (insufficient bodhicitta). Or, to be fair, maybe I'm too critical/skeptical to make the subtle leaps of faith necessary for adhering to a rigorous path, or too infused with Krishnamurtian "Truth is a pathless land" to surrender to a path, any path.

In any case, I continue to be Ferdinand the Bull wandering the countryside from luvverly flower to luvverly flower ... my "path" whatever zig-zag I happen to have taken over the past N months, years, decades.
I can appreciate that. We're all lazy, undedicated and lacking compassion at least some (or most) of the time. I had some of those same doubts but remembering that although these are evidently 'pathy' paths, the actual nature of the path and result is still empty and an illusory display, including Buddhahood. It's all a skillfull means for us to realize the pathless nature of the path. Sometimes even paths can reveal the pathless just as concepts can lead one to an understanding that gos beyond them! (See heart sutra). Sometimes it seems like you're comitting to a concrete thing but it's really just a commitment to an understanding or not. I don't necessarily think unwavering faith is the most critical component in the beginning . But having some beleif that the fruit of meditation is possible is sort of needed even if it's just an inkling you experiment with. If anything, faith and confidence are likely to increase after one has gained theoretical and experiential confidence in the implications of the meditation in regards to thoughts/perceptions and your own momentary experience of suffering ( attachment/aversion/pride/envy/dullness ) in general. Then there are the improvements and changes you are supposed to see in yourself, even if tiny and very gradual with lots of regressions in between.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Virgo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:24 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm
Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:

Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
What about the Ferdinands of this world who swoop in and sniff deeply (and ecstatically) from Dzogchen, then from Advaita, then from Krishnamurti, then back to Dzogchen, and so on? Are we invited to the buddhahood party?
If you follow other paths, you don't make progress in Dzogchen, so what do you think?

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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heart
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by heart » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:29 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 pm
In this same context the condition of sentient beings is exactly identical with the primordial enlightenment.
All classes of beings, all worlds are manifestation of enlightenment.
However, "sentient beings" are actually the definition of those that have not recognised the true state of everything.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Rick
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Rick » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:35 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:24 pm
If you follow other paths, you don't make progress in Dzogchen, so what do you think?

Kevin
Hi Kevin. :-) I understand the rationale behind staying on one path until you've gone all the way ... but surely that's not the only method to get there. I guess I'm a multipather? (For better or worse!) :quoteunquote:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Rick » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
I can appreciate that. We're all lazy, undedicated and lacking compassion at least some (or most) of the time. I had some of those same doubts but remembering that although these are evidently 'pathy' paths, the actual nature of the path and result is still empty and an illusory display, including Buddhahood. It's all a skillfull means for us to realize the pathless nature of the path. Sometimes even paths can reveal the pathless just as concepts can lead one to an understanding that gos beyond them! (See heart sutra). Sometimes it seems like you're comitting to a concrete thing but it's really just a commitment to an understanding or not. I don't necessarily think unwavering faith is the most critical component in the beginning . But having some beleif that the fruit of meditation is possible is sort of needed even if it's just an inkling you experiment with. If anything, faith and confidence are likely to increase after one has gained theoretical and experiential confidence in the implications of the meditation in regards to thoughts/perceptions and your own momentary experience of suffering ( attachment/aversion/pride/envy/dullness ) in general. Then there are the improvements and changes you are supposed to see in yourself, even if tiny and very gradual with lots of regressions in between.
Yes and I'm seeing these changes, as are those around me who can view me with more dispassion than I can. And considering where I come from in terms of psychoemotional umm ... colorfulness ... visible changes are pretty amazing. Now you could say if I stuck with Dzogchen, say, really went full force into the Sharp Vajra path of Dudjom Lingpa ("channeling" Lake Born Padamsambhava) as taught so well by (the somewhat controversial) Alan Wallace, I'd see faster/deeper changes. And you could be right. But dammit! Ferdinand soooooooooooo wants to smell all the other beautiful flowers. Can you (kind of) dig it?

You've been such a good friend during my time in this forum, Vasana. And, icing on the cake: You're quite brilliant. I really appreciate that you exist. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Virgo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:49 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:35 pm
Hi Kevin. :-) I understand the rationale behind staying on one path until you've gone all the way ... but surely that's not the only method to get there. I guess I'm a multipather? (For better or worse!) :quoteunquote:
So you find your real nature wanting?

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:31 pm

Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm
Yuren wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm
So what's the success rate like, in percentages?
For instance, how many have become enlightened by following Namkhai Norbu?
Everyone who follows Dzogchen teachings will attain buddhahood, either in this life, the bardo, or the very next lifetime. As Paṇḍita Vimalamitra says:


Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.
What % of those manage to attain it in this lifetime? Obviously you can't know but if you had to take a guess?

No idea, but that does not concern me very much.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:32 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:22 pm

What about the Ferdinands of this world who swoop in and sniff deeply (and ecstatically) from Dzogchen, then from Advaita, then from Krishnamurti, then back to Dzogchen, and so on? Are we invited to the buddhahood party?
If you enter into Dzogchen teachings in a real sense, you wont be interested in other teachings at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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