enlightment in one life

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Vasana
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Vasana » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:36 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm

Yes and I'm seeing these changes, as are those around me who can view me with more dispassion than I can. And considering where I come from in terms of psychoemotional umm ... colorfulness ... visible changes are pretty amazing. Now you could say if I stuck with Dzogchen, say, really went full force into the Sharp Vajra path of Dudjom Lingpa ("channeling" Lake Born Padamsambhava) as taught so well by (the somewhat controversial) Alan Wallace, I'd see faster/deeper changes. And you could be right. But dammit! Ferdinand soooooooooooo wants to smell all the other beautiful flowers. Can you (kind of) dig it?
Glad that you're seeing changes and others are too !
Well maybe it could be worth examining what you think going 'full force's into it really means. It's likely you have unchecked assumptions about it even without the channeling stuff. :tongue: Really to expect to go into it without some amount of unchecked assumptions/misconceptions s is unrealistic for many although thoroughly investigating what the path entails in as much detail as possible may be the best option to ensure doubts and confusions are cleared up as early as possible.

You've been such a good friend during my time in this forum, Vasana. And, icing on the cake: You're quite brilliant. I really appreciate that you exist. :-)
Aw thanks. My ego really enjoyed that bit of praise :sage: Glad you're here too, man. You bring a good honest perspective with discussions that probably steer conversation in positive ways for others with similar view. :group:
Last edited by Vasana on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Vasana
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Vasana » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:32 pm
Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:22 pm

What about the Ferdinands of this world who swoop in and sniff deeply (and ecstatically) from Dzogchen, then from Advaita, then from Krishnamurti, then back to Dzogchen, and so on? Are we invited to the buddhahood party?
If you enter into Dzogchen teachings in a real sense, you wont be interested in other teachings at all.
While I think this is true, I think people can still find benefit from other teachings if those teachings happen to be in alignment with the principles of dharma indirectly or unintentionally. Just as even some popular music or film can have aspects relevant to Dharma without the creators intending it. This perspective presupposes some familiarity with the Dharma though.

But as you say, this is really only applicable until one is deep into the teachings but even then, it may be easier to see the relative benefits that may arise from finding inspiration or other qualities from other traditions that are transferable to the primary practice of Dharma or Dzogchen.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Vasana
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Vasana » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
So long as Samaya is in tact and if one has actually seen 'the door' with certainty and nurtured that recognition I would imagine? What about unripened karma ? What does 'average diligence' mean in the degenerative age?
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Virgo
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Virgo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:01 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:41 pm

While I think this is true, I think people can still find benefit from other teachings if those teachings happen to be in alignment with the principles of dharma indirectly or unintentionally. Just as even some popular music or film can have aspects relevant to Dharma without the creators intending it. This perspective presupposes some familiarity with the Dharma though.
People can certainly enter into other aspects of Dharma. For example, people can reflect on stura level topics, or practice methods like tonglen, etc., and people can practice Vajrayana as well as Dzogchen. There is no contradiction because those methods are taught - ultimately - to bring you to your own nature. Non-Buddhist methods can be used too if they help your life, for example chi kung, or non-Buddhist astrological systems, or whatever. But non-Buddhist spiritual traditions do not have the same goal as Buddhist traditions, and therefore, the compatability is very questionable.

Kevin

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dzogchungpa
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:03 am

Rick wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm
Yes and I'm seeing these changes, as are those around me who can view me with more dispassion than I can. And considering where I come from in terms of psychoemotional umm ... colorfulness ... visible changes are pretty amazing. Now you could say if I stuck with Dzogchen, say, really went full force into the Sharp Vajra path of Dudjom Lingpa ("channeling" Lake Born Padamsambhava) as taught so well by (the somewhat controversial) Alan Wallace, I'd see faster/deeper changes. And you could be right. But dammit! Ferdinand soooooooooooo wants to smell all the other beautiful flowers. Can you (kind of) dig it?

Rick, I'm in an uncharacteristically sincere mood so I'm going to say what I think. If you feel you're developing well, don't worry so much about it. Just follow your intuition and do your best. Nobody on this forum knows you better than you know yourself, right?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by makewhisper » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
Thank you for this. Out of curiosity, is the condition described in this citation that one has recognized vidyā or merely that one has received a Dzogchen empowerment like Norbu Rinpoche’s DI? Thanks!
ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ
Oṃ Āḥ Hūṃ
Om Ah Hung

"Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free."

[from Je Tsongkhapa's Three Principal Aspects of the Path]

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm

makewhisper wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
Thank you for this. Out of curiosity, is the condition described in this citation that one has recognized vidyā or merely that one has received a Dzogchen empowerment like Norbu Rinpoche’s DI? Thanks!
It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

chimechodra
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Location: Boulder, CO

Re: enlightment in one life

Post by chimechodra » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm
makewhisper wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm


You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
Thank you for this. Out of curiosity, is the condition described in this citation that one has recognized vidyā or merely that one has received a Dzogchen empowerment like Norbu Rinpoche’s DI? Thanks!
It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm
makewhisper wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:12 pm
Thank you for this. Out of curiosity, is the condition described in this citation that one has recognized vidyā or merely that one has received a Dzogchen empowerment like Norbu Rinpoche’s DI? Thanks!
It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?
Practice rushen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Aryjna » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:33 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm


It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?
Practice rushen.
Is it more important than semdzins?

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:46 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:33 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm


What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?
Practice rushen.
Is it more important than semdzins?
Yes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Aryjna » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:46 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:33 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm


Practice rushen.
Is it more important than semdzins?
Yes.
Thanks

Miroku
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Miroku » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm


It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?
Practice rushen.
Is it possible to do them without phat if one doesn't want to disturb neighbours? And if not will the inner rushen be enough?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

chimechodra
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by chimechodra » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm


It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?
Practice rushen.
Any rushen in particular? I imagine purification of the six lokas in particular would be very helpful?

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Malcolm
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 am

chimechodra wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm


What happens to sincere/diligent practitioners who have not confirmed their understanding of rigpa?
Practice rushen.
Any rushen in particular? I imagine purification of the six lokas in particular would be very helpful?
One does them all, step by step, starting with rushan of the body. It is of some import to go in this sequence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Motova » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm
makewhisper wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm


You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
Thank you for this. Out of curiosity, is the condition described in this citation that one has recognized vidyā or merely that one has received a Dzogchen empowerment like Norbu Rinpoche’s DI? Thanks!
It refers to someone who has confirmed vidyā in a direct perception. However, successful completion of separation of samsara and nirvana of the body is described as having the same result.
Loppon can you please tell us what the factors are that would obstruct one from recognizing vidyā?

What organs or senses do we need?

Are there any mental health issues or imbalances of the humours or out of whack channels that would block recognition?

Are there cases of totally healthy and diligent practitioners who are totally unable to recognize vidyā for some reason?

Are there any concepts that one must be able to understand thus blocking people of lower intelligence from recognizing vidyā?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Motova
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Motova » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm
We're all lazy...
You don't need to worry. Vimalamitra states:

One of average diligence sees the instruction of the guru, seeing the direct perception of vidyā. However, because they are distracted by worldly distractions, they never have time to practice. When they cast off this body of traces, through the blessings of seeing the door of profound dharmatā, after they find solace in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, they attain buddhahood. Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood. This it is said that for these ones, “the appearances of samsara are impossible.”
Loppon do these practitioners practice Dzogchen in natural nirmanakāya buddhafields?

If so, do they have the ability to manifest the Great Transference?

Can you please explain any reason to hold out on Buddhahood until one manifests the Great Transference?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Rick
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by Rick » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:32 pm
If you enter into Dzogchen teachings in a real sense, you wont be interested in other teachings at all.
But there are SO MANY beautiful flowers to smell ... !

Image
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: enlightment in one life

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:30 am

Maybe when he gets stung on the rear by a Loppon he will take a detour to Madrid.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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