Morality of stockholding

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Inge
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Morality of stockholding

Post by Inge » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees?

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Vasana
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Vasana » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:05 pm

I suppose it depends on the kind of company, what the employees do to make that profit and what the company then does with that profit along with the degree of employee exploitation involved. Is it exploitation if the employees 'volunteer' to work there for a wage ?

I think it's difficult to avoid moral grey and black areas just by virtue of using currencies in the first place when you follow where the money comes from and who profits most from it's circulation and national/global workforce. Does ethical/moral capitalism even exist? I suppose all we can do is our best and try to clear as many of our own karmic debts and obscurations in the process but it's a good thing to think about. :thanks:
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justsit
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by justsit » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:08 pm

There are several different questions in there, I'll break it down a bit. These are big issues, so this is just a simplified view.

Let's first agree that the reason companies are created is to make a profit. That being said,

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees? No.
Employees are usually paid a wage to provide labor (let's keep it simple and avoid the "decent" wage issue for now), they are usually not "forced" to work at a particular company. It's what used to be called a social contract - I work for you, you pay me.

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits? It depends; first, on the amount of profit. A reasonable profit is acceptable, an outrageous profit is not, IMO. Also, there are issues related to how the profit is distributed. $100 million CEO bonuses? Not acceptable.

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company? Depends on what the company does. Nuclear weapons, firearms, etc. IMO immoral to participate.

Do you think is it immoral to own shares? IMO dealing with Wall Street is no different than any other form of gambling. Money is manipulated in hidden and often nefarious ways, the deck is stacked against the little people, and the goal once again is outrageous not reasonable profit. So no.

IF you can find a socially responsible company (most likely not on the big board) that accepts a reasonable profit and treats its employees well, that would be my investment choice. Big IF.

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Inge
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Inge » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:19 pm

In my opinion it is in general immoral to profit from the work of other beings.

Bristollad
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Bristollad » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:38 am

What do you by profit? Do you mean just financial gain, or all advantage and benefit? I gain benefit from the work of others, from the taxes that are used to provide roads, hospitals etc. People living on alms certainly profit from the work of others - is that always immoral?

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by shaunc » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:59 am

justsit wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:08 pm
There are several different questions in there, I'll break it down a bit. These are big issues, so this is just a simplified view.

Let's first agree that the reason companies are created is to make a profit. That being said,

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees? No.
Employees are usually paid a wage to provide labor (let's keep it simple and avoid the "decent" wage issue for now), they are usually not "forced" to work at a particular company. It's what used to be called a social contract - I work for you, you pay me.

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits? It depends; first, on the amount of profit. A reasonable profit is acceptable, an outrageous profit is not, IMO. Also, there are issues related to how the profit is distributed. $100 million CEO bonuses? Not acceptable.

Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company? Depends on what the company does. Nuclear weapons, firearms, etc. IMO immoral to participate.

Do you think is it immoral to own shares? IMO dealing with Wall Street is no different than any other form of gambling. Money is manipulated in hidden and often nefarious ways, the deck is stacked against the little people, and the goal once again is outrageous not reasonable profit. So no.

IF you can find a socially responsible company (most likely not on the big board) that accepts a reasonable profit and treats its employees well, that would be my investment choice. Big IF.
Very well said.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:00 pm

Inge wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm
Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees?
All companies make profit from their employees. I recommend Das Kapital for a more complete analysis about how they do it.
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Miroku » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:55 pm

Just in case you wanted to read das Kapital, but would prefer it as manga.

https://mangafox.me/manga/das_kapital/
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Nemo
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Nemo » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:17 pm

Isn't it a form of parasitism? Defending the morality of making money while you sleep while others toil and sweat for a fraction of what you make takes some very intense mental gymnastics.

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Inge
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Inge » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:34 pm

To be more specific - do I accumulate negative karma from owning shares in a company that generates a profit to shareholders? Regardless of the nature of the business of the company.

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Inge
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Inge » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:00 pm
Inge wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm
Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees?
All companies make profit from their employees. I recommend Das Kapital for a more complete analysis about how they do it.
Not companies that looses money, or not for profit companies.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Grigoris » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:00 pm

Inge wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:36 pm
Not companies that looses money,
No, they still screw their employees, they just mismanage the money they make from the labour surplus.
or not for profit companies.
Having worked for and been a director of a non-profit companies I can assure you that they also screw their employees for profit, they are just better at hiding profit. For example: non-profit organisations are allowed to make a profit but they cannot divide the profit among the shareholders, the profits have to go back into the company's capital. So you buy a flash car that is owned by the company but is driven exclusively by the company director. The company pays for the shareholders to go on all-expenses-paid trips to exotic locations for business purposes. Etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Josef » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:14 pm

Inge wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:34 pm
To be more specific - do I accumulate negative karma from owning shares in a company that generates a profit to shareholders? Regardless of the nature of the business of the company.
No
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by tingdzin » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:27 am

Why in the world is this in the Dzogchen forum?

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:51 am

My portfolio manager says "no." ;)

I seem to recall in Shambhala mag a while back there was an advertisement for "enlightened" investment company.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Punya » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:03 am

Yes, there are "ethical" superannuation funds around too. I guess you'd have to check how ethical.
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Josef » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:22 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:27 am
Why in the world is this in the Dzogchen forum?
Because the dzogchen view can be applied to any aspect of our daily lives, finances included.
Kye ma!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:39 am

Labor creates the wealth of a company.
In a capitalist system,that wealth (and the investment potential of that wealth) belongs to the owner the owner of the company.
If a company is owned by its workers, they collectively own that wealth.
In a socialist economy, that wealth belongs to the workers as a collective class.

So, the question you are asking, I think, is whether or not ownership of the wealth created by others is theft
and thus unethical, and karmically negative.

It could have negative consequences, it could be a means of accumulating negative karma, but does not necessarily make that happen.
Most people (fooloshly or not, depending on one's views on Marx) have no problem with that arrangement.
In that case, no.

I recall somewhere, in a teaching to householders, Buddha says you should feed your servants and treat them well.
So, you have to look at Buddhist teachings in their pre-industrial, historical context as well, including ancient Indian caste society.
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:56 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:39 am
Labor creates the wealth of a company.
Are there any other factors of production?
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:59 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:08 pm
Employees are usually paid a wage to provide labor ... they are usually not "forced" to work at a particular company. It's what used to be called a social contract - I work for you, you pay me.
Does one employee have the same bargaining power as a company?

How many jobs can the employee afford to lose, versus how many jobs can the company afford to lose?
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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