Morality of stockholding

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Malcolm
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:16 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:59 pm
justsit wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:08 pm
Employees are usually paid a wage to provide labor ... they are usually not "forced" to work at a particular company. It's what used to be called a social contract - I work for you, you pay me.
Does one employee have the same bargaining power as a company?

How many jobs can the employee afford to lose, versus how many jobs can the company afford to lose?
See? it is better to be a company.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:32 pm

There are certainly many factors involved in production, but the cost of everything in production is a reflection of the labor needed to use it. If there is a shipping fee, it's because somebody needs to transport it, or track its transporting or whatever. Robots pose an interesting problem here, as they can produce things for which nobody is getting paid, which means nobody has earned the money needed to buy the item.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:35 pm

"an employee gets paid" is another way of saying the employee receives a percentage of the total wealth his or her labor has produced.
If the employee makes more than what it costs to eat and live, and earns enough extra to save, then that employee has made a profit.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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Mantrik
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Mantrik » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:50 pm

I have a friend who is a Jain, and also a hugely wealthy man, in Rajasthan, India.
He uses his money to build hospitals, outreach medical care for villages, runs schools etc.
He does not use it for himself, even dedicating years to personally nurse his sick wife.

Wealth can be seen as a means to create positive karma, surely.
Sure, wealth creation can be a dirty business, which is why Jains tend to favour 'ethical' banking, gemstone dealing etc.

It did occur to me that in the right hands it may be more effective than if dissipated amongst those who can only improve their own lot by a tiny amount, or ending up in the hands of corrupt officials.

That's not to say this is a universal truth, just that we should not dismiss the benefits of someone accruing wealth through commerce and using it for social benefit.
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm

The Buddha hung out with kings as well as beggars.
many people who make money off employees do in fact do great and beneficial things with that money. There are many wealthy buddhsts in Asia doing great things
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

tingdzin
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by tingdzin » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:26 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:22 pm
Because the dzogchen view can be applied to any aspect of our daily lives, finances included.
How delusional.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Josef » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:45 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:26 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:22 pm
Because the dzogchen view can be applied to any aspect of our daily lives, finances included.
How delusional.
Really?
Explain to us how the Dzogchen view is limited.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by oldbob » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:02 pm

:good: Joseph.

Yes, the Dzogchen view is unlimited, but in truth, saying even that is a limit.

The moment you have Dzogchen and not Dzogchen, or limit and not limited, there is duality and error and non-error. :smile:

So morality and immorality and stockholding and non-stockholding are the same in the emptiness of self-nature.

It's tricky because in the relative world there is good and bad, and gain and loss, leading to happiness and unhappiness, etc.

Perhaps it knocks down to intention. If you invest in companies that do good things and don't do bad things it is better karma than the opposite.

I believe that the karma of your investments are part of your general dimension of your own personal karma.

So be aware of the karma of your investments.

That said, it is really hard to separate elation when things go well, and sadness when things go badly.

Also there is the question of whether it is moral to live off the work of others. This is a complex question of general economics and there are many words written about this.

http://open.lib.umn.edu/principleseconomics/

In the end I think that it depends on the individual and their circumstances and motivation.

My life has been simpler and happier when I am not actively investing.

oldbob

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Dan74
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Dan74 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:13 pm

Starting a company often involves a great deal of initial investment of labour and money which is inherently risky. The people hired do not have to face the same risks. Hence it could be seen as trading risk (of losing the work and money expended by the owner) in exchange for profit.

I don't think it is inherently immoral, no, any more than say, insurance, which also takes on risk in exchange for premium.

_/|\_

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by crazy-man » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:10 am

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.
"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
[The Blessed One said:] "There are these four qualities, TigerPaw, that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in this life. Which four? Being consummate in initiative, being consummate in vigilance, admirable friendship, and maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in initiative? There is the case where a lay person, by whatever occupation he makes his living — whether by farming or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man or by any other craft — is clever and untiring at it, endowed with discrimination in its techniques, enough to arrange and carry it out. This is called being consummate in initiative.
"And what does it mean to be consummate in vigilance? There is the case when a lay person has righteous wealth — righteously gained, coming from his initiative, his striving, his making an effort, gathered by the strength of his arm, earned by his sweat — he manages to protect it through vigilance [with the thought], 'How shall neither kings nor thieves make off with this property of mine, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' This is called being consummate in vigilance.
"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.
"And what does it mean to maintain one's livelihood in tune? There is the case where a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' Just as when a weigher or his apprentice, when holding the scales, knows, 'It has tipped down so much or has tipped up so much,' in the same way, the lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' If a lay person has a small income but maintains a grand livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman devours his wealth like a fruit-tree eater.'[2] If a lay person has a large income but maintains a miserable livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman will die of starvation.' But when a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income,' this is called maintaining one's livelihood in tune.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:30 am

oldbob wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:02 pm
:good: Joseph.

Yes, the Dzogchen view is unlimited, but in truth, saying even that is a limit.

The moment you have Dzogchen and not Dzogchen, or limit and not limited, there is duality and error and non-error. :smile:

So morality and immorality and stockholding and non-stockholding are the same in the emptiness of self-nature.

It's tricky because in the relative world there is good and bad, and gain and loss, leading to happiness and unhappiness, etc.

Perhaps it knocks down to intention. If you invest in companies that do good things and don't do bad things it is better karma than the opposite.

I believe that the karma of your investments are part of your general dimension of your own personal karma.

So be aware of the karma of your investments.

That said, it is really hard to separate elation when things go well, and sadness when things go badly.

Also there is the question of whether it is moral to live off the work of others. This is a complex question of general economics and there are many words written about this.

http://open.lib.umn.edu/principleseconomics/

In the end I think that it depends on the individual and their circumstances and motivation.

My life has been simpler and happier when I am not actively investing.

oldbob
I largely agree with this. With a couple of qualifiers.
One, everything is interdependent. We all to some degree live off the work of others and they off ours. Two...my life is simpler BECAUSE I made certain investments of an ethical nature. It has also generated income for good causes.
I will vote for Corbyn at the next general election in the UK. I want to see a socialist government
But in my view that means investing wisely and responsibly. Not ceasing to invest.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Josef » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:47 pm

oldbob wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:02 pm
:good: Joseph.

Yes, the Dzogchen view is unlimited, but in truth, saying even that is a limit.

The moment you have Dzogchen and not Dzogchen, or limit and not limited, there is duality and error and non-error. :smile:

So morality and immorality and stockholding and non-stockholding are the same in the emptiness of self-nature.

It's tricky because in the relative world there is good and bad, and gain and loss, leading to happiness and unhappiness, etc.

Perhaps it knocks down to intention. If you invest in companies that do good things and don't do bad things it is better karma than the opposite.

I believe that the karma of your investments are part of your general dimension of your own personal karma.

So be aware of the karma of your investments.

That said, it is really hard to separate elation when things go well, and sadness when things go badly.

Also there is the question of whether it is moral to live off the work of others. This is a complex question of general economics and there are many words written about this.

http://open.lib.umn.edu/principleseconomics/

In the end I think that it depends on the individual and their circumstances and motivation.

My life has been simpler and happier when I am not actively investing.

oldbob
Well said Bob.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Malcolm
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:16 pm

Index funds.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Lindama
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Lindama » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:01 pm

indeed... "the karma of your investments" as oldbob says. Peter Joseph talking about the stock market....

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not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
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tingdzin
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by tingdzin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:45 pm
tingdzin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:26 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:22 pm
Because the dzogchen view can be applied to any aspect of our daily lives, finances included.
How delusional.
Really?
Explain to us how the Dzogchen view is limited.
Well, the term is so watered down now, it has become meaningless, just a way for people to feel trendy and "in" about what they're doing. Next we'll hear about the Dzogchen approach to politics or tap dancing. All hogwash.

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:00 am

tingdzin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 am

Well, the term is so watered down now, it has become meaningless, just a way for people to feel trendy and "in" about what they're doing.
Somehow I doubt that Josef's intention is to be a 'trendy Dzogchen stockholder.'

Kevin

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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:11 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:45 pm
tingdzin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:26 am


How delusional.
Really?
Explain to us how the Dzogchen view is limited.
Well, the term is so watered down now, it has become meaningless, just a way for people to feel trendy and "in" about what they're doing. Next we'll hear about the Dzogchen approach to politics or tap dancing. All hogwash.
I see no implication here that there is a 'Dzogchen way of investing'.
There is the View, or it's absence.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

Simon E.
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:41 pm

I see a basic misunderstand here which is a priori to the 'morality' debate.

Dzogchen is not a 'method' although there is a process.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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Malcolm
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:49 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:45 pm
tingdzin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:26 am


How delusional.
Really?
Explain to us how the Dzogchen view is limited.
Well, the term is so watered down now, it has become meaningless, just a way for people to feel trendy and "in" about what they're doing. Next we'll hear about the Dzogchen approach to politics or tap dancing. All hogwash.

However, investing in the market is an excellent way to observe one's hope when the market rises, and fear when the market declines. So indeed, one can carry investing into the Dzogchen path. After nonduality is not the measure of Dzogchen practice, but rather, freedom from hope and fear. As John Bogle says, a successful investor buys while the market is falling, and sells while market is rising.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Morality of stockholding

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:55 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 am
Well, the term is so watered down now, it has become meaningless, just a way for people to feel trendy and "in" about what they're doing.
Kind of like "Buddhism" too. I don't see may "fake Guru Rinpoche quotes" on the internet.
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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