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Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:34 am
by tingdzin
All these replies have to do with Buddhist morality rather than "Dzogchen ethics" as if there were such a thing. That's why my original query was, "why is this in the Dzogchen section?"

If it were in the Buddhist ethics section. more people would probably benefit from it as well.

Not to pick nits, but words cannot mean just want we want them to.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:29 pm
by Josef
tingdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:34 am
All these replies have to do with Buddhist morality rather than "Dzogchen ethics" as if there were such a thing. That's why my original query was, "why is this in the Dzogchen section?"

If it were in the Buddhist ethics section. more people would probably benefit from it as well.

Not to pick nits, but words cannot mean just want we want them to.
I think a second thread in the ethics section would be useful.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm
by Ricky
tingdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:34 am
All these replies have to do with Buddhist morality rather than "Dzogchen ethics" as if there were such a thing. That's why my original query was, "why is this in the Dzogchen section?"

If it were in the Buddhist ethics section. more people would probably benefit from it as well.

Not to pick nits, but words cannot mean just want we want them to.
Yup.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:09 pm
by fckw
How can Dzogchen say anything meaningful about the morality of stock holding if all major texts were written at a time and place where stock markets did not exist for hundreds of years to come? Buddhists are not even aligned today when it comes to making judgment calls whether eating meat is ethically okay or not, so how much less can they be aligned whether owning stocks is ethically problematic or not?

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:43 pm
by Simon E.
Inge wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm
Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees?
The OP.
Because it was posted in the Dzogchen forum it is tempting to assume that Inge was making a particular case vis a vis Dzogchen.
But the point you make is valid. Being a Vajrayana practitioner of any hue including Dzogchen does not imply uniformity on all points of ethical behaviour or in political views.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:55 pm
by Inge
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:43 pm
Inge wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm
Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees?
The OP.
Because it was posted in the Dzogchen forum it is tempting to assume that Inge was making a particular case vis a vis Dzogchen.
But the point you make is valid. Being a Vajrayana practitioner of any hue including Dzogchen does not imply uniformity on all points of ethical behaviour or in political views.
I probably read most topics posted in the Dzogchen forum, so that is why I posted it there. What I want to know though, is if owning shares in a company accumulates negative karma, and if this in any way is making obstacles to realizing Buddhahood.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:07 pm
by Malcolm
Inge wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:55 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:43 pm
Inge wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm
Do you think is it immoral to own shares in a company that makes profits from its employees?
The OP.
Because it was posted in the Dzogchen forum it is tempting to assume that Inge was making a particular case vis a vis Dzogchen.
But the point you make is valid. Being a Vajrayana practitioner of any hue including Dzogchen does not imply uniformity on all points of ethical behaviour or in political views.
I probably read most topics posted in the Dzogchen forum, so that is why I posted it there. What I want to know though, is if owning shares in a company accumulates negative karma, and if this in any way is making obstacles to realizing Buddhahood.
Depends on the company —— I think owning shares of gun companies, not so good.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 pm
by fckw
Why don't you ask: "Is working for a company accumulating negative karma?" I don't see any reason why stock ownership should be so very different compared to working for a company. Your question simply does not make a lot of sense. Obviously you own a computer. Hence, you supported a company that produced it. And therefore also many companies that produced its parts. Did you accumulate negative karma by buying the computer? Maybe it matters much more, what you do with it? But maybe it does not. Perhaps it's even worse: The sign of you being concerned about potentially accumulating negative karma by owning stocks shows that you are in fact preoccupied with stocks. This is already your karma, you don't have to accumulate any more at all. You could also just not bother about the question at all - but no, you actually do bother about it. Therefore, your preoccupation with what is morally right is an expression of exactly that karma, i.e. "wanting to do the right thing". Ever read the Anguttara Nikaya IV, 77 (https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.77)? These are the words of the Buddha himself:
Shakyamuni Buddha wrote: “There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
“The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
“The jhana-range of a person in jhana…
“The [precise working out of the] results of kamma…
“Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
“These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them.”
There you got it. Buddha himself tells you not to conjecture about the precise workings of the results of karma. I never understood why Buddhists are so eternally preoccupied with the potential of accumulation and purification of negative karma, if Buddha personally told them not to bother too much about the topic.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:06 am
by Inge
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:07 pm
Inge wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:55 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:43 pm


The OP.
Because it was posted in the Dzogchen forum it is tempting to assume that Inge was making a particular case vis a vis Dzogchen.
But the point you make is valid. Being a Vajrayana practitioner of any hue including Dzogchen does not imply uniformity on all points of ethical behaviour or in political views.
I probably read most topics posted in the Dzogchen forum, so that is why I posted it there. What I want to know though, is if owning shares in a company accumulates negative karma, and if this in any way is making obstacles to realizing Buddhahood.
Depends on the company —— I think owning shares of gun companies, not so good.
What about banks, or beer breweries?

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:43 am
by Malcolm
Inge wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:06 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:07 pm
Inge wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:55 pm

I probably read most topics posted in the Dzogchen forum, so that is why I posted it there. What I want to know though, is if owning shares in a company accumulates negative karma, and if this in any way is making obstacles to realizing Buddhahood.
Depends on the company —— I think owning shares of gun companies, not so good.
What about banks, or beer breweries?
depends on the bank, breweries, well selling alcohol is technically wrong livelihood.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:58 am
by MiphamFan
If you own index funds you probably own indirectly at least a tiny amount of alcohol-related and gun shares.

I think if you can the best thing is just owning your own business.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:59 am
by Simon E.
And even then you will presumably need supplies and goods and services from others.

'Purity is not an option' Chime Yongden Rinpoche.

Re: Morality of stockholding

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:20 pm
by Malcolm
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:58 am
If you own index funds you probably own indirectly at least a tiny amount of alcohol-related and gun shares.
Depends on the fund. There are socially responsible funds:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/m ... 030503.asp

However, they tend to underperform the market. However, some clean energy funds returned 40+ percent last year, a sign that internationally, the shift to solar and wind is finally becoming very profitable.