Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

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Pumo
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Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Pumo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Hi everyone, long time since the last time I visited the forums. :namaste:

I've been studying some Tibetan Buddhism at the local Tibet House every now and then, but due to lack of time (due to my job) I've not been able to visit on each study cycle, so sometimes I get a bit lost.

I took a course on Mahamudra, and some of the views on Dzogchen were mentioned as reference, but I left with a bit of doubt about what are the main characteristics that distinguish both views, both on the phylosophical and practical level (i.e. forms of meditation and practice, interpretations of conciousness and Dharma, etc)

So, what's the deal with both views? :thinking:
'may all beings be happy at heart.' - Karaniya Metta Sutta :buddha1:

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Josef » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 am

They are essentially the same.
The only real differences are in methodology.
What we normally think of as Mahamudra is virtually identical to Dzogchen Semde.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Vasana
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Vasana » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:58 am

'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Simon E. » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:22 am

To say I am no scholar ( in things Buddhadharma) is an understatement.
One thing I can tell you which may or may not be pertinent is that my first teacher taught Mahamudra to anyone who asked for it, but Dzogchen to only a very few.
Now that was then and if he was around bodily today his position might have changed.
But certainly back then he thought that they were in practice terms sufficiently different to be suited to some and not to others.
Furthermore, he stopped teaching Mahamudra to those to whom he taught Dzogchen.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by XXIlluminatingVoid72 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:46 pm

I think a better question would be, the main differences between Trekchod and Mahamudra. If there is none, then the main difference would be Thodgal and different root texts

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Simon E. » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:31 pm

I might be misremembering but I think Malcolm has made a similar point elsewhere.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Virgo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:31 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:22 am
To say I am no scholar ( in things Buddhadharma) is an understatement.
One thing I can tell you which may or may not be pertinent is that my first teacher taught Mahamudra to anyone who asked for it, but Dzogchen to only a very few.
Now that was then and if he was around bodily today his position might have changed.
But certainly back then he thought that they were in practice terms sufficiently different to be suited to some and not to others.
Furthermore, he stopped teaching Mahamudra to those to whom he taught Dzogchen.
Thanks for sharing that about Trungpa, Simon.

Kevin
Short break.... be back on Friday. :)

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm

I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen? My main text right now is Tilopa so - “Ganges” mahamudra I suppose.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm
I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen?
No. Dzogchen is strictly part of secret mantra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm
I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen?
No. Dzogchen is strictly part of secret mantra.
Even in Semde. Ok. So out of curiosity in e.g. CNNR style, the tigle is considered to be - not a generic image?

PS: I mean in guru yoga, obviously.

PPS: Dumb question, never mind.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm
I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen?
No. Dzogchen is strictly part of secret mantra.
Even in Semde. Ok. So out of curiosity in e.g. CNNR style, the tigle is considered to be - not a generic image?
It is a symbol that contains the entire meaning of the path of Dzogchen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm
It is a symbol that contains the entire meaning of the path of Dzogchen.
Ok ... so when we read Tilopa, he says:

When you look into space, seeing stops. Likewise, when mind looks at mind, the flow of thinking stops and you come to the deepest awakening.

That sounds to me like it can’t apply to tigle in guru yoga bc ... well, there it is, it’s there. So white A must remain as ... a preliminary? The unfindability of mind has to be different from an image that ... I can find.

Apologies I am out of the kiddie pool without a diaper.

PS: And if the image is there it must be generic. I must have manufactured it. Bc - that’s all the mind can do. That’s clarity.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm
It is a symbol that contains the entire meaning of the path of Dzogchen.
Ok ... so when we read Tilopa, he says:

When you look into space, seeing stops. Likewise, when mind looks at mind, the flow of thinking stops and you come to the deepest awakening.

That sounds to me like it can’t apply to tigle in guru yoga bc ... well, there it is, it’s there. So white A must remain as ... a preliminary? The unfindability of mind has to be different from an image that ... I can find.

Apologies I am out of the kiddie pool without a diaper.

PS: And if the image is there it must be generic. I must have manufactured it. Bc - that’s all the mind can do. That’s clarity.

It is a symbol of kadag and lhundrup, Everything is included, even mahāmudra. Symbols are just symbols, but one can attain awakening using a symbol, as is clearly stated by Manjuśrīmitra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 pm
It is a symbol of kadag and lhundrup, Everything is included, even mahāmudra. Symbols are just symbols, but one can attain awakening using a symbol, as is clearly stated by Manjuśrīmitra.
Is there really a difference between using it to proceed through the four “yogas” as opposed to just trying to find the mind?

PS: And then resting in that.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:12 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 pm
It is a symbol of kadag and lhundrup, Everything is included, even mahāmudra. Symbols are just symbols, but one can attain awakening using a symbol, as is clearly stated by Manjuśrīmitra.
Is there really a difference between using it to proceed through the four “yogas” as opposed to just trying to find the mind?

PS: And then resting in that.

It is not an object of meditation. It is a symbol one uses to go beyond thought.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:39 am

Ty _/\_
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Mantrik » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:24 am

I never consider the thigle as a static image. It isn't flat or dead in that way.
http://www.khyung.com

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Pumo
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Pumo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:50 pm

Ok, both reference threads were a very interesting read!

To be honest, I can't completely say I understood completely but it gave me an idea, and also made me realize I have still way too much to learn. Tantric Buddhism is both complex and fascinating, and this encourages me to keep studying more and more.

Thanks for your help! :twothumbsup:
'may all beings be happy at heart.' - Karaniya Metta Sutta :buddha1:

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weitsicht
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by weitsicht » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:12 am

I found this article useful:

https://www.lionsroar.com/two-great-paths/
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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