Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

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Pumo
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Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Pumo »

Hi everyone, long time since the last time I visited the forums. :namaste:

I've been studying some Tibetan Buddhism at the local Tibet House every now and then, but due to lack of time (due to my job) I've not been able to visit on each study cycle, so sometimes I get a bit lost.

I took a course on Mahamudra, and some of the views on Dzogchen were mentioned as reference, but I left with a bit of doubt about what are the main characteristics that distinguish both views, both on the phylosophical and practical level (i.e. forms of meditation and practice, interpretations of conciousness and Dharma, etc)

So, what's the deal with both views? :thinking:
'may all beings be happy at heart.' - Karaniya Metta Sutta :buddha1:
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Josef »

They are essentially the same.
The only real differences are in methodology.
What we normally think of as Mahamudra is virtually identical to Dzogchen Semde.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Vasana
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Vasana »

'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Simon E. »

To say I am no scholar ( in things Buddhadharma) is an understatement.
One thing I can tell you which may or may not be pertinent is that my first teacher taught Mahamudra to anyone who asked for it, but Dzogchen to only a very few.
Now that was then and if he was around bodily today his position might have changed.
But certainly back then he thought that they were in practice terms sufficiently different to be suited to some and not to others.
Furthermore, he stopped teaching Mahamudra to those to whom he taught Dzogchen.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by XXIlluminatingVoid72 »

I think a better question would be, the main differences between Trekchod and Mahamudra. If there is none, then the main difference would be Thodgal and different root texts
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Simon E. »

I might be misremembering but I think Malcolm has made a similar point elsewhere.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Virgo »

Simon E. wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:22 am To say I am no scholar ( in things Buddhadharma) is an understatement.
One thing I can tell you which may or may not be pertinent is that my first teacher taught Mahamudra to anyone who asked for it, but Dzogchen to only a very few.
Now that was then and if he was around bodily today his position might have changed.
But certainly back then he thought that they were in practice terms sufficiently different to be suited to some and not to others.
Furthermore, he stopped teaching Mahamudra to those to whom he taught Dzogchen.
Thanks for sharing that about Trungpa, Simon.

Kevin
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis »

I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen? My main text right now is Tilopa so - “Ganges” mahamudra I suppose.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen?
No. Dzogchen is strictly part of secret mantra.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen?
No. Dzogchen is strictly part of secret mantra.
Even in Semde. Ok. So out of curiosity in e.g. CNNR style, the tigle is considered to be - not a generic image?

PS: I mean in guru yoga, obviously.

PPS: Dumb question, never mind.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm I’m a little out of touch these days - sutra versus tantric versus essence styles - is that a discussion in dzogchen?
No. Dzogchen is strictly part of secret mantra.
Even in Semde. Ok. So out of curiosity in e.g. CNNR style, the tigle is considered to be - not a generic image?
It is a symbol that contains the entire meaning of the path of Dzogchen.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm It is a symbol that contains the entire meaning of the path of Dzogchen.
Ok ... so when we read Tilopa, he says:

When you look into space, seeing stops. Likewise, when mind looks at mind, the flow of thinking stops and you come to the deepest awakening.

That sounds to me like it can’t apply to tigle in guru yoga bc ... well, there it is, it’s there. So white A must remain as ... a preliminary? The unfindability of mind has to be different from an image that ... I can find.

Apologies I am out of the kiddie pool without a diaper.

PS: And if the image is there it must be generic. I must have manufactured it. Bc - that’s all the mind can do. That’s clarity.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm It is a symbol that contains the entire meaning of the path of Dzogchen.
Ok ... so when we read Tilopa, he says:

When you look into space, seeing stops. Likewise, when mind looks at mind, the flow of thinking stops and you come to the deepest awakening.

That sounds to me like it can’t apply to tigle in guru yoga bc ... well, there it is, it’s there. So white A must remain as ... a preliminary? The unfindability of mind has to be different from an image that ... I can find.

Apologies I am out of the kiddie pool without a diaper.

PS: And if the image is there it must be generic. I must have manufactured it. Bc - that’s all the mind can do. That’s clarity.

It is a symbol of kadag and lhundrup, Everything is included, even mahāmudra. Symbols are just symbols, but one can attain awakening using a symbol, as is clearly stated by Manjuśrīmitra.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 pm It is a symbol of kadag and lhundrup, Everything is included, even mahāmudra. Symbols are just symbols, but one can attain awakening using a symbol, as is clearly stated by Manjuśrīmitra.
Is there really a difference between using it to proceed through the four “yogas” as opposed to just trying to find the mind?

PS: And then resting in that.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:41 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 pm It is a symbol of kadag and lhundrup, Everything is included, even mahāmudra. Symbols are just symbols, but one can attain awakening using a symbol, as is clearly stated by Manjuśrīmitra.
Is there really a difference between using it to proceed through the four “yogas” as opposed to just trying to find the mind?

PS: And then resting in that.

It is not an object of meditation. It is a symbol one uses to go beyond thought.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Ty _/\_
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Mantrik »

I never consider the thigle as a static image. It isn't flat or dead in that way.
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by Pumo »

Ok, both reference threads were a very interesting read!

To be honest, I can't completely say I understood completely but it gave me an idea, and also made me realize I have still way too much to learn. Tantric Buddhism is both complex and fascinating, and this encourages me to keep studying more and more.

Thanks for your help! :twothumbsup:
'may all beings be happy at heart.' - Karaniya Metta Sutta :buddha1:
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra main differences

Post by weitsicht »

I found this article useful:

https://www.lionsroar.com/two-great-paths/
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
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