Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
- Johnny Dangerous
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Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
I suspect I have an inkling of this, but are there some specific Tonglen instructions or teachings from a Dzogchen point of view that people would reccomend?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
It is certainly not incompatable with Dzogchen, but I do not think there are any Dzogchen particular instructions on this.
Kevin
Kevin
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Ive yet to encounter a specific Dzogchen take on Tonglen but it can certainly be practiced from that perspective.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Wondering if anyone knows of where Longchenpa might cover it, for instance.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 am Wondering if anyone knows of where Longchenpa might cover it, for instance.
According to this page it is discussed in his "Mind and Comfort and Ease" but I can't seem to track down the exact reference. While I was looking around I came across an interesting passage in Anyen Rinpoche's "The Union of Dzogchen and Bodhichitta", which has quite a bit about tonglen in it:
Jigme Lingpa's uncommonly deep Bodhichitta revealed itself whenever he saw a sentient being experiencing pain or suffering. He seemed to feel their pain in his own body. Based on this deep compassion for the suffering of others, he composed hundreds and thousands of verses on the way to practice Tonglen. He practiced so diligently that after a time he continually exchanged himself for others. Jigme Lingpa once said that of all the events in his life, he most wished to be remembered for taking up the practice of Tonglen and meditation on the Union.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Some early morning thoughts: They're certainly compatible. Even practicing it in a regular Mahayana way helps decrease the innate self-grasping and gathers merit which should then cumulatively make it easier to recognize and continue in that state. Since we have the trio of escence, nature and capacity, abiding in the natural state could perhaps be seen as the ultimate tong-len just as the sun radiates light rays in all directions effortlessly when the clouds are parted.
And conversely, as the Mahamudra aspiration mentions,
'In a moment of compassion, the empty escence dawns nakedly'
Practicing it as usual but then alternating between the focus of 'sending and receiving' and then dropping the concepts of self,other and activity. Or just dropping the reference points as per any Dzogchen instruction you have and returning to tonglen a short while after.
Would also be interested in hearing more authoritative takes on it.
And conversely, as the Mahamudra aspiration mentions,
'In a moment of compassion, the empty escence dawns nakedly'
Practicing it as usual but then alternating between the focus of 'sending and receiving' and then dropping the concepts of self,other and activity. Or just dropping the reference points as per any Dzogchen instruction you have and returning to tonglen a short while after.
Would also be interested in hearing more authoritative takes on it.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
I don't know of any specific instruction but if we are familiar a little bit with our state and know how to rest in it we can do any mind based practice from inside that and they are more effective.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:47 am I suspect I have an inkling of this, but are there some specific Tonglen instructions or teachings from a Dzogchen point of view that people would reccomend?
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pmTonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Maybe, but for example, Tonglen as written about by Adzom Drugpa in his version of the Chetsun Nyingthig Ngondro, it just old Kadamapa style.dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pmI clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pmTonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pmI clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pmTonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
TaTa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pmHe metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pmI clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
I would want to see a textual source.
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Tonglen Practice with Dzogchen Meditation
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
hereMalcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:12 pmTaTa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pmHe metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"dzoki wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
I would want to see a textual source.
viewtopic.php?t=16164
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
This is not at all different than old Kadampa tonglen system.
Consider all phenomena to be like a dream.
Investigate the natural state of non-arisen vidyā.
The antidote too is liberated in its own state.
The essence of the path is resting in the nature of the all-basis.
2.1.3:
Be an illusionist between sessions.
2.2: There are two in meditating relative bodhicitta, equipoise and post-equipoise.
2.2.1:
Train in alternating between giving and receiving,
Those two should be mounted on the breath.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Or, alternately, Tonglen already is grounded in Dzogchen view; certainly Pabhongkha thought that the passage I cited was unduly influenced by Nyingma teachings, and so he changed the wording...remember, all early Kadampas were basically from Nyingma families.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Wow, had no idea, thanks!Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:35 pmOr, alternately, Tonglen already is grounded in Dzogchen view; certainly Pabhongkha thought that the passage I cited was unduly influenced by Nyingma teachings, and so he changed the wording...remember, all early Kadampas were basically from Nyingma families.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov
Don't know if there are specific instructions, but i can say with certainty that any buddhadharma can be practiced within dzogchen practice.
Other very different thing is conceptual practice.
Other very different thing is conceptual practice.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.