Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

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Johnny Dangerous
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Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I suspect I have an inkling of this, but are there some specific Tonglen instructions or teachings from a Dzogchen point of view that people would reccomend?
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Virgo »

It is certainly not incompatable with Dzogchen, but I do not think there are any Dzogchen particular instructions on this.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Josef »

Ive yet to encounter a specific Dzogchen take on Tonglen but it can certainly be practiced from that perspective.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Wondering if anyone knows of where Longchenpa might cover it, for instance.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by dzogchungpa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 am Wondering if anyone knows of where Longchenpa might cover it, for instance.

According to this page it is discussed in his "Mind and Comfort and Ease" but I can't seem to track down the exact reference. While I was looking around I came across an interesting passage in Anyen Rinpoche's "The Union of Dzogchen and Bodhichitta", which has quite a bit about tonglen in it:
Jigme Lingpa's uncommonly deep Bodhichitta revealed itself whenever he saw a sentient being experiencing pain or suffering. He seemed to feel their pain in his own body. Based on this deep compassion for the suffering of others, he composed hundreds and thousands of verses on the way to practice Tonglen. He practiced so diligently that after a time he continually exchanged himself for others. Jigme Lingpa once said that of all the events in his life, he most wished to be remembered for taking up the practice of Tonglen and meditation on the Union.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Vasana »

Some early morning thoughts: They're certainly compatible. Even practicing it in a regular Mahayana way helps decrease the innate self-grasping and gathers merit which should then cumulatively make it easier to recognize and continue in that state. Since we have the trio of escence, nature and capacity, abiding in the natural state could perhaps be seen as the ultimate tong-len just as the sun radiates light rays in all directions effortlessly when the clouds are parted.

And conversely, as the Mahamudra aspiration mentions,

'In a moment of compassion, the empty escence dawns nakedly'

Practicing it as usual but then alternating between the focus of 'sending and receiving' and then dropping the concepts of self,other and activity. Or just dropping the reference points as per any Dzogchen instruction you have and returning to tonglen a short while after.

Would also be interested in hearing more authoritative takes on it.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by florin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:47 am I suspect I have an inkling of this, but are there some specific Tonglen instructions or teachings from a Dzogchen point of view that people would reccomend?
I don't know of any specific instruction but if we are familiar a little bit with our state and know how to rest in it we can do any mind based practice from inside that and they are more effective.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by dzoki »

There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm »

dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by dzoki »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm
dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm »

dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm
dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
Maybe, but for example, Tonglen as written about by Adzom Drugpa in his version of the Chetsun Nyingthig Ngondro, it just old Kadamapa style.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by TaTa »

dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm
dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm »

TaTa wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm
dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm

Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

I would want to see a textual source.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by crazy-man »

Tonglen Practice with Dzogchen Meditation
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:12 pm
TaTa wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm
dzoki wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm

I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

I would want to see a textual source.
here
viewtopic.php?t=16164
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm »

Miroku wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:12 pm
TaTa wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm

He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

I would want to see a textual source.
here
viewtopic.php?t=16164
This is not at all different than old Kadampa tonglen system.

Consider all phenomena to be like a dream.
Investigate the natural state of non-arisen vidyā.
The antidote too is liberated in its own state.
The essence of the path is resting in the nature of the all-basis.

2.1.3:
Be an illusionist between sessions.

2.2: There are two in meditating relative bodhicitta, equipoise and post-equipoise.

2.2.1:
Train in alternating between giving and receiving,
Those two should be mounted on the breath.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
Or, alternately, Tonglen already is grounded in Dzogchen view; certainly Pabhongkha thought that the passage I cited was unduly influenced by Nyingma teachings, and so he changed the wording...remember, all early Kadampas were basically from Nyingma families.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

:cheers:
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
Or, alternately, Tonglen already is grounded in Dzogchen view; certainly Pabhongkha thought that the passage I cited was unduly influenced by Nyingma teachings, and so he changed the wording...remember, all early Kadampas were basically from Nyingma families.
Wow, had no idea, thanks!
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by jet.urgyen »

Don't know if there are specific instructions, but i can say with certainty that any buddhadharma can be practiced within dzogchen practice.

Other very different thing is conceptual practice.
true dharma is inexpressible.

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