Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

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Johnny Dangerous
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Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:47 am

I suspect I have an inkling of this, but are there some specific Tonglen instructions or teachings from a Dzogchen point of view that people would reccomend?
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Virgo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:42 am

It is certainly not incompatable with Dzogchen, but I do not think there are any Dzogchen particular instructions on this.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Josef » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:04 am

Ive yet to encounter a specific Dzogchen take on Tonglen but it can certainly be practiced from that perspective.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 am

Wondering if anyone knows of where Longchenpa might cover it, for instance.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:23 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 am
Wondering if anyone knows of where Longchenpa might cover it, for instance.

According to this page it is discussed in his "Mind and Comfort and Ease" but I can't seem to track down the exact reference. While I was looking around I came across an interesting passage in Anyen Rinpoche's "The Union of Dzogchen and Bodhichitta", which has quite a bit about tonglen in it:
Jigme Lingpa's uncommonly deep Bodhichitta revealed itself whenever he saw a sentient being experiencing pain or suffering. He seemed to feel their pain in his own body. Based on this deep compassion for the suffering of others, he composed hundreds and thousands of verses on the way to practice Tonglen. He practiced so diligently that after a time he continually exchanged himself for others. Jigme Lingpa once said that of all the events in his life, he most wished to be remembered for taking up the practice of Tonglen and meditation on the Union.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:40 am

Some early morning thoughts: They're certainly compatible. Even practicing it in a regular Mahayana way helps decrease the innate self-grasping and gathers merit which should then cumulatively make it easier to recognize and continue in that state. Since we have the trio of escence, nature and capacity, abiding in the natural state could perhaps be seen as the ultimate tong-len just as the sun radiates light rays in all directions effortlessly when the clouds are parted.

And conversely, as the Mahamudra aspiration mentions,

'In a moment of compassion, the empty escence dawns nakedly'

Practicing it as usual but then alternating between the focus of 'sending and receiving' and then dropping the concepts of self,other and activity. Or just dropping the reference points as per any Dzogchen instruction you have and returning to tonglen a short while after.

Would also be interested in hearing more authoritative takes on it.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by florin » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:33 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:47 am
I suspect I have an inkling of this, but are there some specific Tonglen instructions or teachings from a Dzogchen point of view that people would reccomend?
I don't know of any specific instruction but if we are familiar a little bit with our state and know how to rest in it we can do any mind based practice from inside that and they are more effective.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by dzoki » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm

There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm

dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm
There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by dzoki » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm
There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:26 pm

dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm
There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
Maybe, but for example, Tonglen as written about by Adzom Drugpa in his version of the Chetsun Nyingthig Ngondro, it just old Kadamapa style.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by TaTa » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm

dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 pm
There certainly are dzogchen instructions on tonglen - Khenpo Munsel taught this to Garchen Rinpoche and there was one other instance where it was mention, if I remember right it was in some teaching by Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche. Maybe some student of either Garchen Rinpoche or Jigme Phuntsog Rinpoche could comment on that.
Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:12 pm

TaTa wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:43 pm


Tonglen is an old Kadampa thing. That said, there are certainly instructions on Tonglen by Dzogchen masters.
I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

I would want to see a textual source.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by crazy-man » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:32 pm

Tonglen Practice with Dzogchen Meditation

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Miroku » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:12 pm
TaTa wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:21 pm


I clearly remeber hearing and reading about dzogchen style tonglen. Garchen Rinpoche spoke about this practice during one of his teachings. It was somewhat different from classical lojong style tonglen. As I said, some of his closer students could comment. If I bump into that instruction in written form I will post a link.
He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

I would want to see a textual source.
here
viewtopic.php?t=16164
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
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You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:24 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:12 pm
TaTa wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:03 pm


He metions this in his documentary "for the benefit of beings"

I would want to see a textual source.
here
viewtopic.php?t=16164
This is not at all different than old Kadampa tonglen system.

Consider all phenomena to be like a dream.
Investigate the natural state of non-arisen vidyā.
The antidote too is liberated in its own state.
The essence of the path is resting in the nature of the all-basis.

2.1.3:
Be an illusionist between sessions.

2.2: There are two in meditating relative bodhicitta, equipoise and post-equipoise.

2.2.1:
Train in alternating between giving and receiving,
Those two should be mounted on the breath.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm

So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Malcolm
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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:35 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm
So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
Or, alternately, Tonglen already is grounded in Dzogchen view; certainly Pabhongkha thought that the passage I cited was unduly influenced by Nyingma teachings, and so he changed the wording...remember, all early Kadampas were basically from Nyingma families.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:11 am

:cheers:
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:33 pm
So basically, if one is pretty familiar already with Lojong/Tonglen, then you just apply the instructions with Dzogchen view/contemplation...it seems.
Or, alternately, Tonglen already is grounded in Dzogchen view; certainly Pabhongkha thought that the passage I cited was unduly influenced by Nyingma teachings, and so he changed the wording...remember, all early Kadampas were basically from Nyingma families.
Wow, had no idea, thanks!
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-Jeff H.

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Re: Tonglen from a Dzogchen Pov

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:58 am

Don't know if there are specific instructions, but i can say with certainty that any buddhadharma can be practiced within dzogchen practice.

Other very different thing is conceptual practice.
what are you doing

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