Pointing out instructions and commitments

Punya
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Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am

Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them? This is my understanding, but some people seem to talk about it in a more casual way.

I'm also wondering if you receive pointing out instructions from them does this make them your root guru/tsewa lama or does that occur when and if you actually realise the instructions?

I don't know much about Dzogchen and I hope someone will be willing to answer these basic questions.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:29 am

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am
Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them? This is my understanding, but some people seem to talk about it in a more casual way.

I'm also wondering if you receive pointing out instructions from them does this make them your root guru/tsewa lama or does that occur when and if you actually realise the instructions?

I don't know much about Dzogchen and I hope someone will be willing to answer these basic questions.
If the pointing out is successful, I am not sure it is even a choice, whether you choose to call them your root teacher etc., you can't go back to how it was before. If unsuccessful, I don't know....I'm not even sure there is such thing as successful or unsuccessful pointing out, per se.
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heart
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by heart » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:04 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:29 am
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am
Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them? This is my understanding, but some people seem to talk about it in a more casual way.

I'm also wondering if you receive pointing out instructions from them does this make them your root guru/tsewa lama or does that occur when and if you actually realise the instructions?

I don't know much about Dzogchen and I hope someone will be willing to answer these basic questions.
If the pointing out is successful, I am not sure it is even a choice, whether you choose to call them your root teacher etc., you can't go back to how it was before. If unsuccessful, I don't know....I'm not even sure there is such thing as successful or unsuccessful pointing out, per se.
A successful pointing-out means you got it. If you get it and have some confidence in that your relationship to the Guru will be very close. Not because someone tell you to, or some rules force you.Closeness is the heart of samaya.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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florin
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by florin » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:38 am

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am
Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them? This is my understanding, but some people seem to talk about it in a more casual way.

I'm also wondering if you receive pointing out instructions from them does this make them your root guru/tsewa lama or does that occur when and if you actually realise the instructions?

I don't know much about Dzogchen and I hope someone will be willing to answer these basic questions.
The external guru you receive the oral transmission(explanation) and simbolic tranmsission from is to facilitate the discovery of the real guru , that is your primordial state-the direct unmediated transmission. Once discovered and from there onward our sole dedication should be towards familiarization with this state and not to an external guru. But up until this point you work and collaborate with the external guru anyway you can.

With respect to the root guru, according to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche a guru becomes a root guru when, through the media of oral and ritual symbolic transmission the disciple is able to rest unmistakably in the direct unmediated transmission, that is our primordial state. So that guru becomes your root guru when you discover your own real state with the help of their particular transmission.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

diamind
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by diamind » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm

I don't know why people actually think there is this special moment when the guru introduces the nature of mind like he turns it on and off only for special empowerments. He is doing it even as he sleeps.

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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Josef » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:11 pm

diamind wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm
I don't know why people actually think there is this special moment when the guru introduces the nature of mind like he turns it on and off only for special empowerments. He is doing it even as he sleeps.
There are many reasons why people have various understandings.
One is simply their level of experience and background.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Malcolm
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:25 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am
Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them? This is my understanding, but some people seem to talk about it in a more casual way.
Define what you understand by "commitment."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by heart » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:27 pm

diamind wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm
I don't know why people actually think there is this special moment when the guru introduces the nature of mind like he turns it on and off only for special empowerments. He is doing it even as he sleeps.
This isn't correct, sorry man.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:46 pm

While not exactly related to the issue of commitment I wanted to "point out" that in Mingyur Rinpoche's "Turning Confusion Into Clarity" there is a discussion of what he calls the "automatic guru", illustrated by an amusing story about TUR's uncle that is somewhat relevant to the subject of this thread.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:27 pm
diamind wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm
I don't know why people actually think there is this special moment when the guru introduces the nature of mind like he turns it on and off only for special empowerments. He is doing it even as he sleeps.
This isn't correct, sorry man.

/magnus
Agreed, this isn't correct.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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CedarTree
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by CedarTree » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:51 pm

I would be interested to know on here who has received pointing out and actually feels and has been confirmed to have encountered the primordial mind and what that was like....

Seems that is the obvious question at hand.

Practice, Practice, Practice

Punya
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:02 pm

Not to me and that's not what I'm asking. I can't imagine any serious practitioner answering that question on an online forum.
Last edited by Punya on Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Punya
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:25 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am
Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them? This is my understanding, but some people seem to talk about it in a more casual way.
Define what you understand by "commitment."
Good question, I don't really know. I suppose I was thinking that it was establishing a connection that had greater samaya than an empowerment.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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CedarTree
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by CedarTree » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:16 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:02 pm
Not to me and that's not what I'm asking. I can't imagine any serious practitioner answering that question on an online forum.
Seems like it could be good to avoid everyone having different experiences and thinking it's the same thing ;)

Or even worse the whole subjective thing using the same language.....

Having varied accounts, studying the language and how that poster usually posts.

Insights may come from it. I always think that when things aren't investigated and really investigated... that is where a lot of mumbo jumbo starts coming in.

The human mind is very vulnerable to mumbo jumbo. :rolling:

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Malcolm
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:49 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:04 pm

Good question, I don't really know. I suppose I was thinking that it was establishing a connection that had greater samaya than an empowerment.
No, there is no samaya greater than empowerment. Direct introduction is an empowerment.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:50 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:51 pm
I would be interested to know on here who has received pointing out and actually feels and has been confirmed to have encountered the primordial mind and what that was like....
What do you mean by "primordial mind."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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CedarTree
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by CedarTree » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:50 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:51 pm
I would be interested to know on here who has received pointing out and actually feels and has been confirmed to have encountered the primordial mind and what that was like....
What do you mean by "primordial mind."
The term didn't sound right to me but I am in a bit of a rush and don't have much time for DW today.

It seems pointing out is always talked about as "pointing out the nature of the mind".

As I understand the nature of the mind is emptiness and lumionisity and I guess in Tibetan tradition Compassion although I struggle with this one a bit.

But maybe I am off on what is experienced and pointed out in pointing out instruction and could be corrected?

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:07 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:16 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:02 pm
Not to me and that's not what I'm asking. I can't imagine any serious practitioner answering that question on an online forum.
Seems like it could be good to avoid everyone having different experiences and thinking it's the same thing ;)

Or even worse the whole subjective thing using the same language.....

Having varied accounts, studying the language and how that poster usually posts.

Insights may come from it. I always think that when things aren't investigated and really investigated... that is where a lot of mumbo jumbo starts coming in.

The human mind is very vulnerable to mumbo jumbo. :rolling:
Trying to describe it would be yet more mumbo jumbo, one either has confidence in it based on direct experience or not. What it's 'like' can be very vaguely ascertained by simple reviewing the language used often to describe the nature of mind, reading do has etc. It isn't some complicated thing, but it's not a credential either, so outside of teachers it seems it is really no one's place to evaluate someone else's recognition...nor trade stories on it.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Punya
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:49 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:04 pm

Good question, I don't really know. I suppose I was thinking that it was establishing a connection that had greater samaya than an empowerment.
No, there is no samaya greater than empowerment. Direct introduction is an empowerment.
I had the impression it was a special kind of empowerment. Is that not so?
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Josef
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Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Josef » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:33 am

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:49 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:04 pm

Good question, I don't really know. I suppose I was thinking that it was establishing a connection that had greater samaya than an empowerment.
No, there is no samaya greater than empowerment. Direct introduction is an empowerment.
I had the impression it was a special kind of empowerment. Is that not so?
It's just a specific empowerment. They are all pretty special.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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