Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

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Spelare
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Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Spelare » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:33 am

I want to read a bit of Tarthang Tulku because I am in the vicinity of his Nyingma Institute for the next month or so. The trouble is, he doesn't appear to use the traditional terminology for theory or practice, so I feel a bit lost perusing his books. Perhaps that is his intention. I would appreciate the input of forumgoers as to where in his corpus to look for an innovative presentation of dzogchen. Or am I on a wild garuda chase here?

His Time, Space, and Knowledge apparently made an impression on some people. There are a lot of exercises that prompt the reader to examine their direct experience and let go of preconceptions. Are they perhaps intended to bring about a nonconceptual realization of emptiness? In the past few years, TT has published a new series of books with titles like Revelations of Mind and Dimensions of Mind. Their prefaces drop a lot of hints, with references to "the mind's nature," inviting his readers to have an experiential discovery of what the books are "pointing out," and section headings like "Self-Liberation." TT promises to take his readers deeper than ever before in these new releases, but I'm expecting to be frustrated if I don't find any familiar landmarks. He has sponsored the translation of traditional texts, and I'm pretty sure he is qualified to teach dzogchen. But does he, in fact, teach dzogchen directly at any point, or does he just use it sparingly to impart a subtle flavor to abstruse musings on diverse aspects of life, the universe, and everything?

His books' prefaces seem to imply that careful contemplation of their contents, including some exercises, could function as pointing-out instructions—though I fully expect someone to pop up and remind me, "Books can't give you pointing-out instructions!" I will probably never meet him, and few recordings of him exist, so it's probably a question of reading his words or not. I would welcome the suggestions of anyone who has encountered his teachings before.

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:22 am

Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Does a Yeti shit in the Himalayan mountains?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Spelare
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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Spelare » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:36 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:22 am
Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Does a Yeti shit in the Himalayan mountains?
A yeti is a folkloric creature whose existence has not been directly confirmed. I understand that Tarthang Tulku was one of the first to bring this teaching to the West, and that he is kind of a big deal. I guess I should just read his stuff and find out for myself, without worrying about the somewhat vague blurbs and prefaces I'm able to find on the internet.

Simon E.
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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:28 am

Klaxon!

Sense of humour failure alert!
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Arnoud » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 am

Whenever I spoke to his former students,I only heard about the karma yoga they did. They rarely saw him and he didn't teach much. He did however had them work quite a bit.

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Spelare
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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Spelare » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:08 pm

I'd be really interested if anybody has determined how TT's rather idiosyncratic terminology lines up with more usual presentations, or if he does not intend for it to do so. For example, am I going to find out that Great Knowledge = [rigpa? yeshe? sems nyid?], Great Time = [the fourth time? timelessness?], and Great Space = [dharmadhatu? Dharmakaya?]. Or, if he uses the terms Time, Space, & Knowledge (TSK) especially idiosyncratically, TSK may just be a way of talking about the trikaya.
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:28 am
Klaxon!

Sense of humour failure alert!
I'm sure it would have been funnier to hear in conversation. Jokes seldom benefit from this rather impersonal medium we're using.

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:12 pm

Well it amused me...but I guess I am used to Greg's sense of humour... :smile:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Spelare
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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Spelare » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:02 pm

Arnoud wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 am
Whenever I spoke to his former students,I only heard about the karma yoga they did. They rarely saw him and he didn't teach much. He did however had them work quite a bit.
Yes. When I asked whether he teaches dzogchen, I did not mean whether he can teach it or whether he likely regards it as the quintessence of Tibetan dharma. He's a Nyingma lama, after all. It may be that he is focused on seeing that certain important works get accomplished, and he doesn't like to give public teachings. I would assume he does teach some people in private, but I'm not terribly likely to encounter his guidance.

But one can interact with instructors who have been approved by him to teach various topics. The descriptions of courses include topics like Mahayana Sutras, Introduction to Longchenpa, and experimental investigations of Time and Mind. The tone they strike in their materials is very much one of open, non-goal-oriented inquiry. Totally non-devotional, not teaching doctrines, suitable for people of any religion or none.

I like the emphasis on direct experience over conceptual knowledge but am skeptical of the rapprochement with the New Age ethos, and references to Western science often strike me as beside the point. It seems to be an attempt to get traction with people who are habituated to a secular materialist mindset. But the frequency with which quantum physics and psychology are invoked in contemporary spiritual culture often leaves me wondering how any of it is germane to actual liberation.

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Mr. G » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:06 pm

Arnoud wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 am
Whenever I spoke to his former students,I only heard about the karma yoga they did. They rarely saw him and he didn't teach much. He did however had them work quite a bit.
I met a volunteer who did karma yoga for 6 months at his center in CA. They have a 60 hour work week. This person also mentioned they did not receive teachings or empowerments during their time there. They were also not allowed to attend tsok. However, this is fine for some like the person I met. I imagine if one gets hired on as staff, things change though I can't say for sure.
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:56 pm

You might want to try contacting Jack Petranker, who seems to be the main TSK guy at this time.
His website is here: http://www.creativeinquiry.org
I'm sure he would be happy to answer your questions, he seems very approachable.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by climb-up » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:22 am
Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Does a Yeti shit in the Himalayan mountains?
:rolling:
That is now going to be one of my go-to responses. right up there with:

-If you have a goat you have goat problems
and
-Its hotter than two hamsters farting in a wool sock (umm... ...so I hear).

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Virgo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:01 am

climb-up wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 pm

:rolling:
That is now going to be one of my go-to responses. right up there with:

-If you have a goat you have goat problems
and
-Its hotter than two hamsters farting in a wool sock (umm... ...so I hear).
Dont forget:

Its hotter than a sheep's ass in a pepper patch.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:50 am

You guys are silly.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:42 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:22 am
Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Does a Yeti shit in the Himalayan mountains?
Nope
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:43 am

He doesn’t teach anymore.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:39 am

references to Western science often strike me as beside the point. It seems to be an attempt to get traction with people who are habituated to a secular materialist mindset. But the frequency with which quantum physics and psychology are invoked in contemporary spiritual culture often leaves me wondering
Well said, I have noticed this too sometimes and I feel the same way.

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by PeterC » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:04 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:39 am
references to Western science often strike me as beside the point. It seems to be an attempt to get traction with people who are habituated to a secular materialist mindset. But the frequency with which quantum physics and psychology are invoked in contemporary spiritual culture often leaves me wondering
Well said, I have noticed this too sometimes and I feel the same way.
Me too. It’s silly.

Nobody who practiced the Dharma even knew the term “quantum physics” more than a few decades ago. Didn’t seem to be a problem for them. So analogies to quantum physics clearly aren’t necessary.

Most Dharma teachers who talk about quantum physics today clearly don’t understand it at all. It is concerned primarily about the behaviour of particles smaller than the Planck length. It Is not concerned with what Dharma texts discuss as the appearance of conventional phenomena. The behaviour of these very small particles doesn’t really tell you much about the behaviour of, say, the sun and moon and the putative horns of a rabbit. So they use something they don’t really understand as an analogy for something the audience doesn’t really understand. A complete waste of everyone’s time.

As for psychology - does that even qualify as a science in the first place? Why do we need to try to measure the Dharma against it?

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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:31 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:42 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:22 am
Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Does a Yeti shit in the Himalayan mountains?
Nope
Why? Is it constipated? :P

But seriously, it seems that a better question would be: DID he teach Dzogchen?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:20 am

PeterC wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:04 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:39 am
references to Western science often strike me as beside the point. It seems to be an attempt to get traction with people who are habituated to a secular materialist mindset. But the frequency with which quantum physics and psychology are invoked in contemporary spiritual culture often leaves me wondering
Well said, I have noticed this too sometimes and I feel the same way.
Me too. It’s silly.

Nobody who practiced the Dharma even knew the term “quantum physics” more than a few decades ago. Didn’t seem to be a problem for them. So analogies to quantum physics clearly aren’t necessary.

Most Dharma teachers who talk about quantum physics today clearly don’t understand it at all. It is concerned primarily about the behaviour of particles smaller than the Planck length. It Is not concerned with what Dharma texts discuss as the appearance of conventional phenomena. The behaviour of these very small particles doesn’t really tell you much about the behaviour of, say, the sun and moon and the putative horns of a rabbit. So they use something they don’t really understand as an analogy for something the audience doesn’t really understand. A complete waste of everyone’s time.

As for psychology - does that even qualify as a science in the first place? Why do we need to try to measure the Dharma against it?
Yes, psychology... which is not psychotherapy nor is it psychoanalysis is a science.
Do we need to measure the Dharma against it ? No.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

PeterC
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Re: Does Tarthang Tulku teach dzogchen?

Post by PeterC » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:23 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:20 am
Yes, psychology... which is not psychotherapy nor is it psychoanalysis is a science.
That's a helpful distinction. Presumably what most 'new age' dharma teachers discuss is actually amateur psychotherapy - though I can't say for sure as it's a brand of teaching I've spent any time on.

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