ChNN on presence

Marc
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:40 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Marc » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:41 pm
...
Thx Malcolm for your answers, as well to MiphamFan and Aflatun for feeding & deepening the discussion.

I confess that I find it quite reassuring to hear via Malcolm that "hard dhyana / jhana" is not necessarily the one and only understanding / norm in Tibetan traditions.

Otherwise Rongzom's advice for "non-chigcharwas" would actually sound a bit depressing... :tongue:

Wishing a nice sunday to all of you,
Cheers
M

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:26 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:59 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:49 am
But I didn't receive any teachings on those practices and AFAIK for Vajrayana practitioners, one's root guru is the ultimate arbiter in case of doubts.
This is a tiresome and repetitive excuse. Thanks goodness ChNN did not just remain passive. When he did not understand something related to practice, he took it to the cushion so he could have his own experience and understanding.
I didn't receive any teachings on dhyanas from a lineage, while I have for other teachings, so I will just continue with the practices I did receive as far as I understand them.
You are free to do as you like, but you, and everyone else, will be a much more solid practitioner if you cultivate the first dhyana. It involves cultivating these five mental factors. You start with mindfulness of breathing, four foundations of mindfulness, and so on. This is no different, really, than reciting a mantra. A mantra is just another way to perfect śamatha.
I did try to read and research about shamatha, it just made me more and more confused about who's right, and more importantly, what to do.
You have to discover these things for yourself. That is the point I am making.
In the end, I decided that I should just follow ChNN, as far as I can understand his teachings, in terms of my practice.
In every retreat, he talks about the five capacities: one of those is samadhi. That samadhi is just a one-pointed mind. In ChNN systems of SMS, after level two, one is expected to be able to sit in meditation for 2 hours a session. This is based on Rongzom's text we have been discussing. One practices either common śamatha or mantra practice, with an aim to arouse these five factors. Rongzom says it is irrelevant which way one practices as long as one combines them with Dzogchen view.
but the practices I received are still primary rather than going off and trying to practise Hinayana/common Mahayana.
Mastering śamatha is a preliminary practice for Dzogchen.

Anyway, right now, as far as I understand right now: the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas was pretty much accepted at least in the Mahayana world. Modern Theravadins who also try to go back to the sutras, as the Sautrantikas did in their time, came up with pretty much the same understanding of the dhyanas, such as Geoff in his post here. Geoff quoted some interesting examples from the Pali Canon illustrating the vitarka, vicara etc which I find more illuminating than the Kosa definition. Do you think that his outline there is accurate from a Mahayana PoV?

Again, one needs to experience these things personally. As Dzogchen practitioners, we are supposed to gain experience in everything. As to yourt question, Geoff's analysis is fine and matches more or less what I can find in the sūtras and tantras (where these factors are also discussed at length in the commentaries).
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:28 pm

Marc wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:41 pm
...
Thx Malcolm for your answers, as well to MiphamFan and Aflatun for feeding & deepening the discussion.

I confess that I find it quite reassuring to hear via Malcolm that "hard dhyana / jhana" is not necessarily the one and only understanding / norm in Tibetan traditions.

Otherwise Rongzom's advice for "non-chigcharwas" would actually sound a bit depressing... :tongue:

Wishing a nice sunday to all of you,
Cheers
M
According to my sources in the Kenjur and Tenjur, the only senses that cease operation in the first dhyāna are smell and taste. Sight, hearing, and tactile sensation remain active.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MiphamFan
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:26 pm
Anyway, right now, as far as I understand right now: the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas was pretty much accepted at least in the Mahayana world. Modern Theravadins who also try to go back to the sutras, as the Sautrantikas did in their time, came up with pretty much the same understanding of the dhyanas, such as Geoff in his post here. Geoff quoted some interesting examples from the Pali Canon illustrating the vitarka, vicara etc which I find more illuminating than the Kosa definition. Do you think that his outline there is accurate from a Mahayana PoV?

Again, one needs to experience these things personally. As Dzogchen practitioners, we are supposed to gain experience in everything. As to yourt question, Geoff's analysis is fine and matches more or less what I can find in the sūtras and tantras (where these factors are also discussed at length in the commentaries).
OK, thanks.

I would love to read more Mahayana commentaries on the Dhyanas and shamatha, but it seems that what is available in English is not as detailed as Theravadin/Pali versions. There was an Indian English translation of Bhavanakrama 1, but the translator does not write very lucidly IMO. I know that Theravadin lineages seem to be mostly a reconstruction (I posted that old thread back on VC after all), but I find stuff like Geoff's analysis interesting because he cites interesting quotes from the Pali canon itself and seems to draw similar conclusions to the Sautrantikas (maybe because he himself has had Mahayana teachers?)

For example, he cites these examples for vitarka and vicara from the canon that I find quite helpful:
Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:50 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:26 pm
Anyway, right now, as far as I understand right now: the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas was pretty much accepted at least in the Mahayana world. Modern Theravadins who also try to go back to the sutras, as the Sautrantikas did in their time, came up with pretty much the same understanding of the dhyanas, such as Geoff in his post here. Geoff quoted some interesting examples from the Pali Canon illustrating the vitarka, vicara etc which I find more illuminating than the Kosa definition. Do you think that his outline there is accurate from a Mahayana PoV?

Again, one needs to experience these things personally. As Dzogchen practitioners, we are supposed to gain experience in everything. As to yourt question, Geoff's analysis is fine and matches more or less what I can find in the sūtras and tantras (where these factors are also discussed at length in the commentaries).
OK, thanks.

I would love to read more Mahayana commentaries on the Dhyanas and shamatha, but it seems that what is available in English is not as detailed as Theravadin/Pali versions. There was an Indian English translation of Bhavanakrama 1, but the translator does not write very lucidly IMO. I know that Theravadin lineages seem to be mostly a reconstruction (I posted that old thread back on VC after all), but I find stuff like Geoff's analysis interesting because he cites interesting quotes from the Pali canon itself and seems to draw similar conclusions to the Sautrantikas (maybe because he himself has had Mahayana teachers?)

For example, he cites these examples for vitarka and vicara from the canon that I find quite helpful:
Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.
Personally, I don't like directed thought and evaluation, but that is just a translation choice. In the Mahāyāna commentaries. they are generally glossed as a course and subtle attention. One point of difference is that the first Dhyāna for us (Sautrantikas, etc.) has no vitarka after one pointedness is reached. It maintains vicara however, because in the first Dhyāna one can still change one's focus.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Losal Samten » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:51 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm
There was an Indian English translation of Bhavanakrama 1, but the translator does not write very lucidly IMO.
Bhavanakramas 1-3 translated by Martin Adam.

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webcl ... 800347~381
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:41 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm


Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.

Just wanted to add, vitarka and vicara are mental factors accompanying all minds in the desire realm, not just the first dhyāna.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by pael » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:26 pm

Mastering śamatha is a preliminary practice for Dzogchen.
How high Jhana/Dhyana? Form or Formless? Or nirodha-samapatti?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:09 pm

pael wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:26 pm

Mastering śamatha is a preliminary practice for Dzogchen.
How high Jhana/Dhyana? Form or Formless? Or nirodha-samapatti?
Perfect śamatha = first dhyāna
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Miroku » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:36 am

So to recapitulate. We should train in presence by mentally checking (or commenting) what we are doing, like "I am sitting in my bed and writing in english on dharmawheel, etc."?
And in order to really become dzogchen practitioners we should train in shine. Can we perfect shine in our daily life (meaning that I have limited time for thuns), also how much time is optimal to train daily in shine so it isn't a "waste of time" (meaning that one can really gain some knowledge of the shine state, for practitioners of lowest capacity)?
Concerning the 4 sutra practices with mindfulness of sensation etc that are described in Precious Vase, is the instruction in Precious Vase enough or should we seek out a retreat? Also is enough to practice shine instead of it?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

MiphamFan
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by MiphamFan » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:35 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:41 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm


Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.

Just wanted to add, vitarka and vicara are mental factors accompanying all minds in the desire realm, not just the first dhyāna.
So for example, if my object of meditation is A, vitarka means directing my attention towards it and vicara would include e.g. thinking that A is a symbol for the primordial state, thinking that it is bright and has natural sound etc (the latter not really involving thinking words but still visualizing/"audializing")?

If my object of meditation is a sadhana then vitarka would include going over the text, even mentally, and vicara would be contemplating the different meanings of the text -- let's say for the 7 Line prayer, the outer, inner etc meanings?

User avatar
Virgo
Global Moderator
Posts: 3343
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Virgo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:52 am

In general, people can become familiar in retreat, or semi-retreat, and then when they understand how to work with the mind it is easy to apply even in daily life, with whatever you meditation object you have, such as GY, etc. You are simply learning how to make the mind coalesce on it's object of meditation.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Sennin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 am

Losal Samten wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:51 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm
There was an Indian English translation of Bhavanakrama 1, but the translator does not write very lucidly IMO.
Bhavanakramas 1-3 translated by Martin Adam.

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webcl ... 800347~381
Thanks for sharing. For me the link keeps saying the request is null. Here is another link just in case.
http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?fu ... N01-MCG02

Also I just wanted to comment I found the shamatha instructions in The Royal Seal of Mahamudra very insightful and clear. https://www.shambhala.com/the-royal-sea ... 3256.html
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hansei, Kunzang Tobgyal, Leif, Mantrik, merilingpa and 44 guests