ChNN on presence

bhava
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ChNN on presence

Post by bhava » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:37 pm

Dear friends, during todays webcast teaching, ChNN spoke about presence and distraction:

1. Difference between ordinary distraction (example of writing a letter) and non-distraction from dzogchen pov (example of driving a car)
How do you understand this?

2. Rinpoche also mentioned that integration of presence is almost or very near to do nonduality. I did not really got it, if he ment something near to union of shamtha and lhagtong/vipasyana. Also where is the point of integration becomes recognition of rigpa?

Thanks for your qualified clarifications and opinions.
With regards

note: spelling edited - Kevin (Virgo)

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Josef
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Josef » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:43 pm

Rinpoche uses "instant presence" for rigpa.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Jyoti
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:54 pm

For bhava:

1. When writing a letter, the intelligence that use to observe the presence is engaged and so it temporary distracted from the observing of presence, but moment later the intelligence can recall the presence of the thought that is generating in the writing, when this temporary recall is regulary apply to thought activity, then one is in reality not distracted in flow of presence, it is like the river has turbulences (thought that distract and thought that recall) but the flow (of presence) is constant. Normally when driving a car, the intelligence can be fully focus on the presence of driving. But if there is any involvement of mental activity due to talking or thinking about something, then the scenario is the same as that of the formal.

2. Nonduality in presence is about the insight that recognise the various phenomena as the same in presence, which are in the aspect of the three modes of existence (presence).

For Josef:

Instant presence is another alternative for the 'state of rigpa', 'rigpa' is just knowledge and 'presence' is not just 'rigpa', it is the 'state of rigpa'. Many westerners just use rigpa to refer to the state of presence, this is an error.

Jyoti

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:16 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:54 pm

Instant presence is another alternative for the 'state of rigpa', 'rigpa' is just knowledge and 'presence' is not just 'rigpa', it is the 'state of rigpa'. Many westerners just use rigpa to refer to the state of presence, this is an error.

Jyoti
Presence is Rinpoche's translation of dran pa, mindfulness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Jyoti
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:24 pm

Malcolm, thanks for the input. Its nice to read your words again after five years of my absence from this board.

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:44 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:24 pm
Malcolm, thanks for the input. Its nice to read your words again after five years of my absence from this board.
Sure, actually, when Rinpoche discusses presence and awareness, he is referencing the terms dran pa (smṛti) and shes bzhin (samprajāna).

His five guidelines for practitioners are always:

1) Ati Guru Yoga.
2) Use presence and awareness.
3) Work with circumstances.
4) Do your best.
5) Relax.

Happy New Year.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Vasana
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Vasana » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm

As far as I heard, he gave these examples to illustrate that we generally make mistakes when we're not present (e.g- copying a text while distracted, cutting your finger when chopping vegetables, having a road accident) and that when we are familiar with the meaning of prescence it is like a person who is well familiar with driving a car. In the beginning you have to use a lot of effort to mantain attention while driving but after some time, familiarity & integration, you can drive while having a complicated conversation with someone and yet not be distracted from what you're doing.

Rinpoche's teachings on prescence are best heard in his own words - they can be found in the book "The practice in Daily Life' among other places.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:12 pm

Vasana wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm
As far as I heard, he gave these examples to illustrate that we generally make mistakes when we're not present (e.g- copying a text while distracted, cutting your finger when chopping vegetables, having a road accident) and that when we are familiar with the meaning of prescence it is like a person who is well familiar with driving a car. In the beginning you have to use a lot of effort to mantain attention while driving but after some time, familiarity & integration, you can drive while having a complicated conversation with someone and yet not be distracted from what you're doing.
Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Aryjna » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:12 pm
Vasana wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm
As far as I heard, he gave these examples to illustrate that we generally make mistakes when we're not present (e.g- copying a text while distracted, cutting your finger when chopping vegetables, having a road accident) and that when we are familiar with the meaning of prescence it is like a person who is well familiar with driving a car. In the beginning you have to use a lot of effort to mantain attention while driving but after some time, familiarity & integration, you can drive while having a complicated conversation with someone and yet not be distracted from what you're doing.
Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.
Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:12 pm
Vasana wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm
As far as I heard, he gave these examples to illustrate that we generally make mistakes when we're not present (e.g- copying a text while distracted, cutting your finger when chopping vegetables, having a road accident) and that when we are familiar with the meaning of prescence it is like a person who is well familiar with driving a car. In the beginning you have to use a lot of effort to mantain attention while driving but after some time, familiarity & integration, you can drive while having a complicated conversation with someone and yet not be distracted from what you're doing.
Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.
Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?
I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Aryjna » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:12 pm


Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.
Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?
I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Thanks. It doesn't look like a lot of detailed instructions are required, maybe that's why there is not too much about it in the books.

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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Fa Dao » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:51 pm

dont know if you can still get it but the book "The Mirror, Advice on the Presence of Awareness" has been helpful for me...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Aryjna
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:57 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:51 pm
dont know if you can still get it but the book "The Mirror, Advice on the Presence of Awareness" has been helpful for me...
Thanks, it is available. I will try to read it.

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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by bhava » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:03 pm

Dear friends, thanks for your answers.

As I am a person of lower intelligence, a little stupid, I will try to summarize how I understood Rinpoches examples of difference between distraction in general and distraction in the teachings:

Distraction in general sense
example: a person writing a letter is distracted by other thoughts, so he/she is not able to keep focus and thus cant go on writing a letter. As mentioned by someone, a sign of this kind of distraction is making mistakes, cutting finger instead of vegetables etc.

Distraction in the sense of teaching
example: person driving a car has acquired a sufficient measure of presence/mindfulness while driving a car, can talk to others while being fully attentive to driving.

From the perspective of dzogchen practice, eg. practice of being in instant presence/rigpa, that is non-distraction. When the continuity of instant presence is interrupted, eg. there is dualism, subject, object, dualistic thinking, that is distraction.

Now from the perspective of practice of ordinary presence/mindfulness, when the factor of presence/mindfulness is active in the flow of ones experience, that is non-distraction. When presence/mindfulness is lost or covered and when cuts fingers etc or cant write letters, that is distraction.

So logical conclusion of distraction in the sense of teaching is loosing rigpa-awareness. Loosing ordinary presence/mindfulness in general sense, it doesnt matter if one is distracted by ones thinking, or outer phenomena or whatever, presence/mindfulness is gone.

Please correct me if I m wrong.

To Malcolm: to be present for one hour or tree hours, thats perhaps almost an attainment. Im wondering if there is anybody here, who could be fully present without any distraction for even one SOV, eg. 7-8 minutes?

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Aryjna
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:47 pm

The new issue of the Mirror has a good amount of material on presence. There is a transcript from a teaching by ChNNR in which he talks specifically again about the letter and car in a bit more detail, and there is also an article by Elio Guarisco on presence.

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 am

Dear Bhava,

The point of contemplation is to train the mind to be able to recall the state, it is not about having prolonged absorption in calmness without distraction. Without distraction while in the state of calm, then the point of the training of contemplation will not be present, the intelligence will not be empower by the training. The state of contemplation is not about calmness either, it is about using the intelligence (the thinking faculty) to become familar with the state of knowledge, to cultivate the habit of recollection of the state of knowledge, to become skillful in the integration of mental disburbances with the thought of recollection, as well as integration of the knowledge of the base as the insight to cut through the various ignorance and delusion of mind. So that the intelligence is firmly established as one of the power of awakening. Anyone can remain in the state of calm and not separate from the base of awareness, but there is no function in the base when the function of mind due to being calm is unable to exercise the insight to cut through its own defilements.

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:09 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 am
Dear Bhava,

The point of contemplation is to train the mind to be able to recall the state, it is not about having prolonged absorption in calmness without distraction. Without distraction while in the state of calm, then the point of the training of contemplation will not be present, the intelligence will not be empower by the training. The state of contemplation is not about calmness either, it is about using the intelligence (the thinking faculty) to become familar with the state of knowledge, to cultivate the habit of recollection of the state of knowledge, to become skillful in the integration of mental disburbances with the thought of recollection, as well as integration of the knowledge of the base as the insight to cut through the various ignorance and delusion of mind. So that the intelligence is firmly established as one of the power of awakening. Anyone can remain in the state of calm and not separate from the base of awareness, but there is no function in the base when the function of mind due to being calm is unable to exercise the insight to cut through its own defilements.
Thanks for this, Jyoti. I'm new to Dzogchen, so I can't say from my own understanding that this is correct, but it certainly seems to focus and clarify much of what I've read in Norbu Rinpoche, and you've expressed it brilliantly.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:09 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 am
Dear Bhava,

The point of contemplation is to train the mind to be able to recall the state, it is not about having prolonged absorption in calmness without distraction. Without distraction while in the state of calm, then the point of the training of contemplation will not be present, the intelligence will not be empower by the training. The state of contemplation is not about calmness either, it is about using the intelligence (the thinking faculty) to become familar with the state of knowledge, to cultivate the habit of recollection of the state of knowledge, to become skillful in the integration of mental disburbances with the thought of recollection, as well as integration of the knowledge of the base as the insight to cut through the various ignorance and delusion of mind. So that the intelligence is firmly established as one of the power of awakening. Anyone can remain in the state of calm and not separate from the base of awareness, but there is no function in the base when the function of mind due to being calm is unable to exercise the insight to cut through its own defilements.
Thanks for this, Jyoti. I'm new to Dzogchen, so I can't say from my own understanding that this is correct, but it certainly seems to focus and clarify much of what I've read in Norbu Rinpoche, and you've expressed it brilliantly.
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know. :shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Jyoti
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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:55 pm

Dear Pero,

You are welcome to raise this topic in my fb group for further discussion

https://www.facebook.com/groups/174598589809247/

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:57 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know. :shrug:
Good advice, and a principle I have tried to apply for 11 years of Gelug-oriented practice. It's something I think we all need to apply regularly on DW. But at the same time, I very often find statements on DW that seem to resonate with what I've heard or read from authentic sources which provide clarification. In those cases I apply the principle in the form of cautious bracketing while I look for further correspondences.

In this case, I realize I could be clinging to a familiar Gelug orientation by grasping at the use of "intelligence", but I'd say this is a key sentence from Jyoti which sounds to me like the process ChNN describes and led to my reply:
The state of contemplation is … about using the intelligence (the thinking faculty) to become familiar with the state of knowledge [rigpa], to cultivate the habit of recollection of the state of knowledge, to become skillful in the integration of mental disturbances with the thought of recollection, as well as integration of the knowledge of the base as the insight to cut through the various ignorance and delusion of mind.
I'd go further to say that if I didn't find these kinds of resonances regularly on DW I wouldn't hang around. The petty bickerings are fun while watching for insights, but if that's all there was, there are better forms of entertainment elsewhere. :smile:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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