ChNN on presence

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Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm

My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know. :shrug:
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:21 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know. :shrug:
+1
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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liuzg150181
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:12 pm


Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.
Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?
I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm

My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know. :shrug:
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.
Would you comment on Jyoti's post? As I am taking it, samadhi is a state of clarity. In Dzogchen the objective is not to remain in samadhi-stillness indefinitely, but to use it for integrating clarity with our conventional interactions. I understood Jyoti to say that contemplation is a process of intelligent agency used to increase non-conceptual familiarity with original nature so that it can be an integral balancing factor to put our delusions in proper context.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 pm


Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?
I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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liuzg150181
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pm


I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.
Not that I have vipassana instruction from a Theravadan system(at least not yet),but this sounds like "mental noting" of Mahasi method based on what I had read.

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Virgo
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Virgo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:18 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Not that I have vipassana instruction from a Theravadan system(at least not yet),but this sounds like "mental noting" of Mahasi method based on what I had read.
It's similar.

Kevin

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liuzg150181
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:33 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:18 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Not that I have vipassana instruction from a Theravadan system(at least not yet),but this sounds like "mental noting" of Mahasi method based on what I had read.
It's similar.

Kevin
There are a few centres in my area offering Mahasi Vipassana,looks like I shall give it a shot when they offer a class. :thumbsup:

Added: Also sounds similar to JoL lvl 1 by Mingyur Rinpoche

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Virgo
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Virgo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:45 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:33 pm

There are a few centres in my area offering Mahasi Vipassana,looks like I shall give it a shot when they offer a class. :thumbsup:
Well it is similar, it is not exactly the same. Mahasi is much more rigorous, and the goal is to also attain a deep level of concentration along with mindfulness. Mahasi is regemented. Your sessions are split between sitting and walking meditation. You begin with walking, and you use a predetermined path which never changes, and you systematically note various aspects of your step as you intentionally walk very slowly on the path. When you sit, there are specific instructions of what to be mindful of. You do note whatever occurs, however, and then return to your main object, until something else occurs (thinking, feeling, hearing a sound, etc). Experiences happen constantly through our six senses, so you are constantly remaining aware and present. Like I said, however, it is much more rigorous, and also designed to help you attain deep concentration, so while it is similar, it is not really the same.

I did a 30 day Mahasi retreat in Thailand.

Kevin

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:57 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know. :shrug:
Good advice, and a principle I have tried to apply for 11 years of Gelug-oriented practice. It's something I think we all need to apply regularly on DW. But at the same time, I very often find statements on DW that seem to resonate with what I've heard or read from authentic sources which provide clarification. In those cases I apply the principle in the form of cautious bracketing while I look for further correspondences.

In this case, I realize I could be clinging to a familiar Gelug orientation by grasping at the use of "intelligence", but I'd say this is a key sentence from Jyoti which sounds to me like the process ChNN describes and led to my reply:
The state of contemplation is … about using the intelligence (the thinking faculty) to become familiar with the state of knowledge [rigpa], to cultivate the habit of recollection of the state of knowledge, to become skillful in the integration of mental disturbances with the thought of recollection, as well as integration of the knowledge of the base as the insight to cut through the various ignorance and delusion of mind.
I'd go further to say that if I didn't find these kinds of resonances regularly on DW I wouldn't hang around. The petty bickerings are fun while watching for insights, but if that's all there was, there are better forms of entertainment elsewhere. :smile:
True. :twothumbsup:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.
See, this is just what I was talking about. I've never heard Rinpoche say anything like this. You're saying everyone has contemplation, where for Rinpoche contemplation is being in rigpa. :shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:22 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.
See, this is just what I was talking about. I've never heard Rinpoche say anything like this. You're saying everyone has contemplation, where for Rinpoche contemplation is being in rigpa. :shrug:
"Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds," is a basic definition from Abhidharma.

When Rinpoche discusses "contemplation," he most frequently resorts to an example from the Samadhirāja Sūtra which maintains that a second of samadhi purifies more karma than eons of merit based practices.

All sentient beings have samadhi, it is what they so with it that determines whether they continue in samsara or achieve awakening; there are mundane samadhis and transcendent samadhis and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Motova » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pm


I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.
I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm

Motova wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.
I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.
In the beginning it is necessary.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Motova » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm
Motova wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm


No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.
I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.
In the beginning it is necessary.
Does Rinpoche have a book that goes indepth into the development and stages of presence?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Malcolm
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Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:37 pm

Motova wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm
Motova wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pm


I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.
In the beginning it is necessary.
Does Rinpoche have a book that goes indepth into the development and stages of presence?
No, but he talks about presence/mindfulness in every retreat.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:22 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.
See, this is just what I was talking about. I've never heard Rinpoche say anything like this. You're saying everyone has contemplation, where for Rinpoche contemplation is being in rigpa. :shrug:
"Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds," is a basic definition from Abhidharma.

When Rinpoche discusses "contemplation," he most frequently resorts to an example from the Samadhirāja Sūtra which maintains that a second of samadhi purifies more karma than eons of merit based practices.

All sentient beings have samadhi, it is what they so with it that determines whether they continue in samsara or achieve awakening; there are mundane samadhis and transcendent samadhis and so on.
I see what you mean now.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Motova
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: CHNN on presence

Post by Motova » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:37 pm
Motova wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm


In the beginning it is necessary.
Does Rinpoche have a book that goes indepth into the development and stages of presence?
No, but he talks about presence/mindfulness in every retreat.
How do we know when to drop the internal vocalization?

In my experience (at the moment very limited) internal vocalization like you mentioned naturally manifests when one is being presence. But more like whispers or echoes.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

bhava
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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by bhava » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:53 pm

Dear friends, I appreciate your answers. Noting/labeling is I guess one of the traditional methods that helps mind to be anchored in presence. In my experience it is very helpful, as the mind is all the time running in some conceptual thoughts anyway. Also contemplation/samadhi I think has different meaning in the context of Abhidharma and in the context dzogchen as used by CHNN. Similiary certain level of stability of presence/mindfulness seems to be a necessity for samadhi.
Anyway I would be very interested to know, if any of you guys have attained 1st dhyana or at least access (upacara) samadhi and how do you see the relationship between recognition of rigpa and having stability in rigpa in connection with training of the mind in the above mentioned stages of meditative absorbtion. With respect and metta...

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Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on presence

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:24 pm

bhava wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:53 pm
Dear friends, I appreciate your answers. Noting/labeling is I guess one of the traditional methods that helps mind to be anchored in presence. In my experience it is very helpful, as the mind is all the time running in some conceptual thoughts anyway. Also contemplation/samadhi I think has different meaning in the context of Abhidharma and in the context dzogchen as used by CHNN. Similiary certain level of stability of presence/mindfulness seems to be a necessity for samadhi.
Anyway I would be very interested to know, if any of you guys have attained 1st dhyana or at least access (upacara) samadhi and how do you see the relationship between recognition of rigpa and having stability in rigpa in connection with training of the mind in the above mentioned stages of meditative absorbtion. With respect and metta...
Rongzom mentions that people who are not immediately launched into realization must a) develop the five factors of the first dhyāna, and b) the way they practice is total mindfulness within the horizon of absolute attention.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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