"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.Pero wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know.
ChNN on presence
Re: ChNN on presence
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Re: ChNN on presence
+1Pero wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pmMy advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know.
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Re: CHNN on presence
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:46 pmI would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.
Re: ChNN on presence
Would you comment on Jyoti's post? As I am taking it, samadhi is a state of clarity. In Dzogchen the objective is not to remain in samadhi-stillness indefinitely, but to use it for integrating clarity with our conventional interactions. I understood Jyoti to say that contemplation is a process of intelligent agency used to increase non-conceptual familiarity with original nature so that it can be an integral balancing factor to put our delusions in proper context.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.Pero wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Re: CHNN on presence
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pmCounting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
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Re: CHNN on presence
Not that I have vipassana instruction from a Theravadan system(at least not yet),but this sounds like "mental noting" of Mahasi method based on what I had read.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pmNo, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pmCounting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
Re: CHNN on presence
It's similar.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 pm
Not that I have vipassana instruction from a Theravadan system(at least not yet),but this sounds like "mental noting" of Mahasi method based on what I had read.
Kevin
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Re: CHNN on presence
There are a few centres in my area offering Mahasi Vipassana,looks like I shall give it a shot when they offer a class.Virgo wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:18 pmIt's similar.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 pm
Not that I have vipassana instruction from a Theravadan system(at least not yet),but this sounds like "mental noting" of Mahasi method based on what I had read.
Kevin
Added: Also sounds similar to JoL lvl 1 by Mingyur Rinpoche
Re: CHNN on presence
Well it is similar, it is not exactly the same. Mahasi is much more rigorous, and the goal is to also attain a deep level of concentration along with mindfulness. Mahasi is regemented. Your sessions are split between sitting and walking meditation. You begin with walking, and you use a predetermined path which never changes, and you systematically note various aspects of your step as you intentionally walk very slowly on the path. When you sit, there are specific instructions of what to be mindful of. You do note whatever occurs, however, and then return to your main object, until something else occurs (thinking, feeling, hearing a sound, etc). Experiences happen constantly through our six senses, so you are constantly remaining aware and present. Like I said, however, it is much more rigorous, and also designed to help you attain deep concentration, so while it is similar, it is not really the same.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:33 pm
There are a few centres in my area offering Mahasi Vipassana,looks like I shall give it a shot when they offer a class.
I did a 30 day Mahasi retreat in Thailand.
Kevin
Re: ChNN on presence
True.Jeff H wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:57 pmGood advice, and a principle I have tried to apply for 11 years of Gelug-oriented practice. It's something I think we all need to apply regularly on DW. But at the same time, I very often find statements on DW that seem to resonate with what I've heard or read from authentic sources which provide clarification. In those cases I apply the principle in the form of cautious bracketing while I look for further correspondences.Pero wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 pm My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know.
In this case, I realize I could be clinging to a familiar Gelug orientation by grasping at the use of "intelligence", but I'd say this is a key sentence from Jyoti which sounds to me like the process ChNN describes and led to my reply:I'd go further to say that if I didn't find these kinds of resonances regularly on DW I wouldn't hang around. The petty bickerings are fun while watching for insights, but if that's all there was, there are better forms of entertainment elsewhere.The state of contemplation is … about using the intelligence (the thinking faculty) to become familiar with the state of knowledge [rigpa], to cultivate the habit of recollection of the state of knowledge, to become skillful in the integration of mental disturbances with the thought of recollection, as well as integration of the knowledge of the base as the insight to cut through the various ignorance and delusion of mind.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: ChNN on presence
See, this is just what I was talking about. I've never heard Rinpoche say anything like this. You're saying everyone has contemplation, where for Rinpoche contemplation is being in rigpa.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: ChNN on presence
"Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds," is a basic definition from Abhidharma.
When Rinpoche discusses "contemplation," he most frequently resorts to an example from the Samadhirāja Sūtra which maintains that a second of samadhi purifies more karma than eons of merit based practices.
All sentient beings have samadhi, it is what they so with it that determines whether they continue in samsara or achieve awakening; there are mundane samadhis and transcendent samadhis and so on.
Re: CHNN on presence
I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pmNo, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pmCounting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
Re: CHNN on presence
In the beginning it is necessary.Motova wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pmI was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pmNo, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:33 pm
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?
Re: CHNN on presence
Does Rinpoche have a book that goes indepth into the development and stages of presence?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pmIn the beginning it is necessary.Motova wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pmI was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
Re: CHNN on presence
Re: ChNN on presence
I see what you mean now.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:22 pm"Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds," is a basic definition from Abhidharma.
When Rinpoche discusses "contemplation," he most frequently resorts to an example from the Samadhirāja Sūtra which maintains that a second of samadhi purifies more karma than eons of merit based practices.
All sentient beings have samadhi, it is what they so with it that determines whether they continue in samsara or achieve awakening; there are mundane samadhis and transcendent samadhis and so on.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: CHNN on presence
How do we know when to drop the internal vocalization?
In my experience (at the moment very limited) internal vocalization like you mentioned naturally manifests when one is being presence. But more like whispers or echoes.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
Re: ChNN on presence
Dear friends, I appreciate your answers. Noting/labeling is I guess one of the traditional methods that helps mind to be anchored in presence. In my experience it is very helpful, as the mind is all the time running in some conceptual thoughts anyway. Also contemplation/samadhi I think has different meaning in the context of Abhidharma and in the context dzogchen as used by CHNN. Similiary certain level of stability of presence/mindfulness seems to be a necessity for samadhi.
Anyway I would be very interested to know, if any of you guys have attained 1st dhyana or at least access (upacara) samadhi and how do you see the relationship between recognition of rigpa and having stability in rigpa in connection with training of the mind in the above mentioned stages of meditative absorbtion. With respect and metta...
Anyway I would be very interested to know, if any of you guys have attained 1st dhyana or at least access (upacara) samadhi and how do you see the relationship between recognition of rigpa and having stability in rigpa in connection with training of the mind in the above mentioned stages of meditative absorbtion. With respect and metta...
Re: ChNN on presence
Rongzom mentions that people who are not immediately launched into realization must a) develop the five factors of the first dhyāna, and b) the way they practice is total mindfulness within the horizon of absolute attention.bhava wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:53 pm Dear friends, I appreciate your answers. Noting/labeling is I guess one of the traditional methods that helps mind to be anchored in presence. In my experience it is very helpful, as the mind is all the time running in some conceptual thoughts anyway. Also contemplation/samadhi I think has different meaning in the context of Abhidharma and in the context dzogchen as used by CHNN. Similiary certain level of stability of presence/mindfulness seems to be a necessity for samadhi.
Anyway I would be very interested to know, if any of you guys have attained 1st dhyana or at least access (upacara) samadhi and how do you see the relationship between recognition of rigpa and having stability in rigpa in connection with training of the mind in the above mentioned stages of meditative absorbtion. With respect and metta...