pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

climb-up
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pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:53 pm

Hello good people, :hi:
I hope this question isn't either too stupid, or inappropriate (if it is the latter, please let me know & I'll delete it).

We all get distracted in out lives and all have times that we get completely lost and/or emotionally hijacked.
It seems like it could be a good idea to practice guruyoga, get into a state of contemplation, and then intentionally think about the type of situation that would trigger me, with the goal of being more ready to integrate contemplation into those situations.

On the other hand it seems like that might not be a good idea, being focused on the future or past and being like a form of conditioning.

Any thoughts?
Any suggestions, other than keep practicing, for those difficult situations that get you before you even realize you got got?

Any suggestions or thoughts are much appreciated. :heart:
Thanks.

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Vasana
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Vasana » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:09 pm

It's not a stupid question and I'm glad you started the thread!

I'm in the process of setting up something very similar. I've written a list of all of the kinds of situations, moods, interactions,thought processes, sensations etc that I tend to find myself repeating in daily life but want to integrate more with the correct view, meditation & conduct.

Based on what I know I need to make a deliberate effort to recall and remind myself of, I've then written myself practice advice ranging from pithy reminders to much longer paragraphs that get to the core of any experience I'm likely to encounter again. Essentially it's like a kind of Lojong Mnemonic device.

Once my list is more or less complete, I plan to have a copy with very tiny print on my person nearly at all times so when I encounter any experience on that the list again, I can immediately recall any relevant slogan or personalized reminders related to that experience.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Vasana » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:16 pm

On the other hand it seems like that might not be a good idea, being focused on the future or past and being like a form of conditioning.
We are creatures of habit. Knowing that we're very likely to encounter similar situations in the future and preparing mindful / dharmic responses to those situations isn't a bad form of conditioning. We still need to make use of deliberate mindfulness until it becomes effortless. Some people might not be suited to the mnemonic idea above but for others, it could help.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by krodha » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:31 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:53 pm
We all get distracted in out lives and all have times that we get completely lost and/or emotionally hijacked.
It seems like it could be a good idea to practice guruyoga, get into a state of contemplation, and then intentionally think about the type of situation that would trigger me, with the goal of being more ready to integrate contemplation into those situations.
You may not be completely aware of the implications of the state of contemplation.

But beyond that, as a beginner who is able to enter the state of contemplation, you certainly would want to simply rest in a relaxed manner so that you sustain that equipoise for as long as possible. Intentionally engaging in conceptualization will cause you to lapse back into afflicted mind.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:11 pm

I am not sure whether it counts as contemplation or not, but it seems to me that TWR teaches in this way sometimes. I suspect the question is whether you are intentionally ' making' something happen, or seeing nakedly what is there...if something is regularly hijacking you, you don't really need to bring it up in a contrived way, it's in the background, so to speak.
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:11 am

The point of contemplation is to train the recollection of the state of knowledge. So the more distraction, the better is the result of the training.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Vasana » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:52 am

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:11 am
The point of contemplation is to train the recollection of the state of knowledge. So the more distraction, the better is the result of the training.
Only if you're not distracted.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:55 am

The point is that is it all about the knowledge of the base, once we can recall it, we can use it for insight to dispell our mental obscuration. Simply remaining in it is just calmness and when the mind is calm, the mental obscuration does not arise for the insight to cut repeatedly until it is completely gone by the force of habit as well as by the power of realization itself. By the time we have pure thought and pure intention, that itself is the pure intelligence, we no longer need to worry about distraction because the root causes of that has been cut off by insight of the intelligence.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by climb-up » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:27 am

I appreciate the comments, thank you all.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:11 pm
I am not sure whether it counts as contemplation or not, but it seems to me that TWR teaches in this way sometimes. I suspect the question is whether you are intentionally ' making' something happen, or seeing nakedly what is there...if something is regularly hijacking you, you don't really need to bring it up in a contrived way, it's in the background, so to speak.
I did actually have something like that in mind, I have done a few guided meditations recently with TWR and (it seems like, based on them) that he endorses this procedure.
My problem isn't that I'm getting regularly hijacked, day-to-day things are going very well in that regard (especially when compared to my life-before-dzogchen :p ), it's more that there are certain situations that, when they do come up, are almost guaranteed to hijack me.
Vasana wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:09 pm
Once my list is more or less complete, I plan to have a copy with very tiny print on my person nearly at all times so when I encounter any experience on that the list again, I can immediately recall any relevant slogan or personalized reminders related to that experience.
That seems like a good idea!
krodha wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:31 pm

You may not be completely aware of the implications of the state of contemplation.

But beyond that, as a beginner who is able to enter the state of contemplation, you certainly would want to simply rest in a relaxed manner so that you sustain that equipoise for as long as possible. Intentionally engaging in conceptualization will cause you to lapse back into afflicted mind.
Do you have any thoughts in regards to particularly difficult situations?
Specifically ones that get you before you realize it?
Other than "practice more," which is, of course, the main answer.
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:11 am
The point of contemplation is to train the recollection of the state of knowledge. So the more distraction, the better is the result of the training.
I've been feeling that more.
Even when I get hijacked in regular life, I am able to recollect earlier and deal with it better (at least better than in the past); and, when it does happen, I have plenty to meditate on/with.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by marting » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:16 pm

Dear Jyoti,
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:55 am
The point is that is it all about the knowledge of the base, once we can recall it, we can use it for insight to dispell our mental obscuration. Simply remaining in it is just calmness and when the mind is calm, the mental obscuration does not arise for the insight to cut repeatedly until it is completely gone by the force of habit as well as by the power of realization itself. By the time we have pure thought and pure intention, that itself is the pure intelligence, we no longer need to worry about distraction because the root causes of that has been cut off by insight of the intelligence.
So is the knowledge base recollected by the pure intelligence through calm and insight? That way, I assume, the mental obscurations are cut at the root by pure thought and pure intention, dispelling force of habit?

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:08 pm

The force of prajñā in instances of equipoise burns away mental obscuration, and said afflictions are not dispelled any other way.

Like a massive release of tension in one's continuum, and then in post-equipoise negative emotions are diminished, in some cases nearly altogether. Certainly altogether for those who have fully exhausted the afflictive obscuration.

The internal reference point of mind, or subject that seems to relate to objects as an entity is like a tightly bound knot that carries a great deal of tension and residual impressions in the form of negative emotions, habits and tendencies.

In instances of true contemplation when that reference point collapses and is realized to be false, that knot is undone for the duration of the period of contemplation and there is a massive release of built up tension.

This is why Norbu Rinpoche says even remaining in equipoise for the period of time it takes an ant to crawl up the length of one's nose purifies eons of karma.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by climb-up » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:24 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:08 pm
The force of prajñā in instances of equipoise burns away mental obscuration, and said afflictions are not dispelled any other way.

Like a massive release of tension in one's continuum, and then in post-equipoise negative emotions are diminished, in some cases nearly altogether. Certainly altogether for those who have fully exhausted the afflictive obscuration.

The internal reference point of mind, or subject that seems to relate to objects as an entity is like a tightly bound knot that carries a great deal of tension and residual impressions in the form of negative emotions, habits and tendencies.

In instances of true contemplation when that reference point collapses and is realized to be false, that knot is undone for the duration of the period of contemplation and there is a massive release of built up tension.

This is why Norbu Rinpoche says even remaining in equipoise for the period of time it takes an ant to crawl up the length of one's nose purifies eons of karma.
I don't disagree with anything you said, and it reflects my understanding, I'm not sure how it relates to my question specifically though.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:39 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:55 am
intelligence.
What Tibetan word do you mean by "intelligence."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:52 pm

climb-up wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:24 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:08 pm
The force of prajñā in instances of equipoise burns away mental obscuration, and said afflictions are not dispelled any other way.

Like a massive release of tension in one's continuum, and then in post-equipoise negative emotions are diminished, in some cases nearly altogether. Certainly altogether for those who have fully exhausted the afflictive obscuration.

The internal reference point of mind, or subject that seems to relate to objects as an entity is like a tightly bound knot that carries a great deal of tension and residual impressions in the form of negative emotions, habits and tendencies.

In instances of true contemplation when that reference point collapses and is realized to be false, that knot is undone for the duration of the period of contemplation and there is a massive release of built up tension.

This is why Norbu Rinpoche says even remaining in equipoise for the period of time it takes an ant to crawl up the length of one's nose purifies eons of karma.
I don't disagree with anything you said, and it reflects my understanding, I'm not sure how it relates to my question specifically though.
The above wasn't directed at you necessarily.

But this is directed at you, so take it or leave it: my advice for dealing with difficult situations in everyday life would be to remain mindful of impermanence and the apparent peaks and valleys of experience. You will have difficult times, and you will have good times.

Fully expect difficult times and accept that it is part of life. Loss and difficulty is the other side of gain and easy times, so expect the ebb and flow. Be prepared and expect it, when it arises do your best to handle it effectively. What arises will fall, what comes together will fall apart, what is born will die... suffering comes from resistance and an inability to expand one's scope to see opportunity when doors close. Try to be an optimist.

Overall view this life like a dream. None of it is actually real. It is a magnificent display of color, sound and sensation. Investigate your mind, it is the root of it all.

As for contemplation, it is like a glass of water, there is no benefit for your thirst unless you drink it. And after you have you will see what color, sound and sensation really are, and how serious difficult situations really are in the grand scope.

Life is a teacher. Learn from your experiences, be thankful for this life. Forge mental fortitude in the flames of gain and loss. A small boat is tossed around by the waves, you can't fix the waves, but you can improve the size and strength of the boat.

Be well.

</life_advice>

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:39 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:55 am
intelligence.
What Tibetan word do you mean by "intelligence."
It is based on the sanskrit term 'Jnana' .

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:54 pm

marting wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:16 pm
Dear Jyoti,
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:55 am
The point is that is it all about the knowledge of the base, once we can recall it, we can use it for insight to dispell our mental obscuration. Simply remaining in it is just calmness and when the mind is calm, the mental obscuration does not arise for the insight to cut repeatedly until it is completely gone by the force of habit as well as by the power of realization itself. By the time we have pure thought and pure intention, that itself is the pure intelligence, we no longer need to worry about distraction because the root causes of that has been cut off by insight of the intelligence.
So is the knowledge base recollected by the pure intelligence through calm and insight? That way, I assume, the mental obscurations are cut at the root by pure thought and pure intention, dispelling force of habit?
Calm and insight is the practice to either get you to realise the state of Rigpa, or to enable you to gain confidence in the state of Rigpa. Once you are confident in the state of Rigpa, then you can train in the recollection of the state of Rigpa with the intellect/jnana. Once becoming familiar with the recollection, you can integrate the various conceptual/emotional process with this knowledge-recollection, gradually the defilement of the mind itself will be transformed as the power of intelligence, and various distraction will be under the control of the intellgence/jnana.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by marting » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:18 pm

Hi Jyoti,
Jyoti wrote:Calm and insight is the practice to either get you to realise the state of Rigpa, or to enable you to gain confidence in the state of Rigpa. Once you are confident in the state of Rigpa, then you can train in the recollection of the state of Rigpa with the intellect/jnana. Once becoming familiar with the recollection, you can integrate the various conceptual/emotional process with this knowledge-recollection, gradually the defilement of the mind itself will be transformed as the power of intelligence, and various distraction will be under the control of the intellgence/jnana.
Ah, OK! Thanks! So the Jnana recollects the knowledge base of Rigpa, which underlining the recollection is calm and insight that leads to confidence of the state of Rigpa that one has realized, moving the conceptual/emotional process into that state of base knowledge and therefore displacing the defilement of the mind into the power of intelligence. This displacement is transformed into the the power of intelligence, though gradually. Am I on the right track?

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:08 pm
The force of prajñā in instances of equipoise burns away mental obscuration, and said afflictions are not dispelled any other way.

Like a massive release of tension in one's continuum, and then in post-equipoise negative emotions are diminished, in some cases nearly altogether. Certainly altogether for those who have fully exhausted the afflictive obscuration.

The internal reference point of mind, or subject that seems to relate to objects as an entity is like a tightly bound knot that carries a great deal of tension and residual impressions in the form of negative emotions, habits and tendencies.

In instances of true contemplation when that reference point collapses and is realized to be false, that knot is undone for the duration of the period of contemplation and there is a massive release of built up tension.

This is why Norbu Rinpoche says even remaining in equipoise for the period of time it takes an ant to crawl up the length of one's nose purifies eons of karma.
Mental obscuration is subsided temporary during mental equipoise, as such the state of Rigpa has no function to anything when the mental faculty is in equipoise, except for serving the equipoise itself (for nothing) due to concentration itself. Furthermore, mental obscuration is not mean to be force away by any conditioned state of meditation, to rid of mental obscuration, the only way is to intellectually recognise the problem with the insight that is gained from the knowledge of the base.

What one experiences in the instance of equipoise is different from what one experiences in normal, distracted mental condition, and where various emotional aversions or attractions are present. If these experiences are not integrated with the intelligence/jnana, they will continue to be the basis of distraction and defilements, when one is distracted from the instant of equipoise.

The merit of equipose is great, but much greater would be the merit of awakening to the bodhi. One doesn't awaken to the bodhi by subdueing the intellect/jnana in equipoise.

Also a common sign of new student here, did they truly received the knowledge/Rigpa? It required an intellect/jnana to hold the knowledge, it is not about some practice to get into a certain state.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:32 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:52 pm
But this is directed at you, so take it or leave it: my advice for dealing with difficult situations in everyday life would be to remain mindful of impermanence and the apparent peaks and valleys of experience. You will have difficult times, and you will have good times.

Fully expect difficult times and accept that it is part of life. Loss and difficulty is the other side of gain and easy times, so expect the ebb and flow. Be prepared and expect it, when it arises do your best to handle it effectively. What arises will fall, what comes together will fall apart, what is born will die... suffering comes from resistance and an inability to expand one's scope to see opportunity when doors close. Try to be an optimist.

Overall view this life like a dream. None of it is actually real. It is a magnificent display of color, sound and sensation. Investigate your mind, it is the root of it all.

As for contemplation, it is like a glass of water, there is no benefit for your thirst unless you drink it. And after you have you will see what color, sound and sensation really are, and how serious difficult situations really are in the grand scope.

Life is a teacher. Learn from your experiences, be thankful for this life. Forge mental fortitude in the flames of gain and loss. A small boat is tossed around by the waves, you can't fix the waves, but you can improve the size and strength of the boat.

Be well.

</life_advice>
When you expound these non-definitive teaching on a dzogchen forum, have you associate the teaching as non-definitive? What is the quality of dzogchen teaching are you trying to communicate to followers of other tradition of buddhism which are definitive?

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:38 pm

marting wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:18 pm
Hi Jyoti,
Jyoti wrote:Calm and insight is the practice to either get you to realise the state of Rigpa, or to enable you to gain confidence in the state of Rigpa. Once you are confident in the state of Rigpa, then you can train in the recollection of the state of Rigpa with the intellect/jnana. Once becoming familiar with the recollection, you can integrate the various conceptual/emotional process with this knowledge-recollection, gradually the defilement of the mind itself will be transformed as the power of intelligence, and various distraction will be under the control of the intellgence/jnana.
Ah, OK! Thanks! So the Jnana recollects the knowledge base of Rigpa, which underlining the recollection is calm and insight that leads to confidence of the state of Rigpa that one has realized, moving the conceptual/emotional process into that state of base knowledge and therefore displacing the defilement of the mind into the power of intelligence. This displacement is transformed into the the power of intelligence, though gradually. Am I on the right track?
Yes.

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