pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

marting
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by marting » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:40 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:38 pm
marting wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:18 pm
Hi Jyoti,
Jyoti wrote:Calm and insight is the practice to either get you to realise the state of Rigpa, or to enable you to gain confidence in the state of Rigpa. Once you are confident in the state of Rigpa, then you can train in the recollection of the state of Rigpa with the intellect/jnana. Once becoming familiar with the recollection, you can integrate the various conceptual/emotional process with this knowledge-recollection, gradually the defilement of the mind itself will be transformed as the power of intelligence, and various distraction will be under the control of the intellgence/jnana.
Ah, OK! Thanks! So the Jnana recollects the knowledge base of Rigpa, which underlining the recollection is calm and insight that leads to confidence of the state of Rigpa that one has realized, moving the conceptual/emotional process into that state of base knowledge and therefore displacing the defilement of the mind into the power of intelligence. This displacement is transformed into the the power of intelligence, though gradually. Am I on the right track?
Yes.
:jumping:

I have no idea what you or I have been talking about the last few posts, but I'm glad I got something right! Thank you, Guru. :namaste:

krodha
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:08 pm
The force of prajñā in instances of equipoise burns away mental obscuration, and said afflictions are not dispelled any other way.

Like a massive release of tension in one's continuum, and then in post-equipoise negative emotions are diminished, in some cases nearly altogether. Certainly altogether for those who have fully exhausted the afflictive obscuration.

The internal reference point of mind, or subject that seems to relate to objects as an entity is like a tightly bound knot that carries a great deal of tension and residual impressions in the form of negative emotions, habits and tendencies.

In instances of true contemplation when that reference point collapses and is realized to be false, that knot is undone for the duration of the period of contemplation and there is a massive release of built up tension.

This is why Norbu Rinpoche says even remaining in equipoise for the period of time it takes an ant to crawl up the length of one's nose purifies eons of karma.
Mental obscuration is subsided temporary during mental equipoise, as such the state of Rigpa has no function to anything when the mental faculty is in equipoise, except for serving the equipoise itself (for nothing) due to concentration itself.
Equipoise [mnyam bzhag] is not a state of concentration.
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm
Furthermore, mental obscuration is not mean to be force away by any conditioned state of meditation,
Equipoise is not a conditioned state of meditation, it is resting in a direct knowledge [rig pa] of the nature of mind [sems nyid].
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm
to rid of mental obscuration, the only way is to intellectually recognise the problem with the insight that is gained from the knowledge of the base.
Prajñā naturally eradicates kleśas, just as heat naturally evaporates water.
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm
What one experiences in the instance of equipoise is different from what one experiences in normal, distracted mental condition,
Obviously.
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm
If these experiences are not integrated with the intelligence/jnana, they will continue to be the basis of distraction and defilements, when one is distracted from the instant of equipoise. The merit of equipose is great, but much greater would be the merit of awakening to the bodhi. One doesn't awaken to the bodhi by subdueing the intellect/jnana in equipoise.
Equipoise is precisely "awakening to the bodhi," as you put it.

One does not subdue jñāna, one cultivates jñāna. Vijñāna is what one aims to "subdue," so to speak.
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm
Also a common sign of new student here, did they truly received the knowledge/Rigpa? It required an intellect/jnana to hold the knowledge, it is not about some practice to get into a certain state.
Jñāna is a function of rig pa [vidyā]. If you are resting in rigpa your modality of cognition is jñāna. Just as when you are in marigpa your modality of cognition is vijñāna [rnam shes].

And it certainly is about "some practice to get into a certain state," as a beginner if you do not make effort you are doing nothing. "Effortlessness" comes much later.

At any rate, the last time you posted here some years ago there was a huge language barrier issue, so hopefully we can remain mindful of that.

krodha
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:47 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:32 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:52 pm
But this is directed at you, so take it or leave it: my advice for dealing with difficult situations in everyday life would be to remain mindful of impermanence and the apparent peaks and valleys of experience. You will have difficult times, and you will have good times.

Fully expect difficult times and accept that it is part of life. Loss and difficulty is the other side of gain and easy times, so expect the ebb and flow. Be prepared and expect it, when it arises do your best to handle it effectively. What arises will fall, what comes together will fall apart, what is born will die... suffering comes from resistance and an inability to expand one's scope to see opportunity when doors close. Try to be an optimist.

Overall view this life like a dream. None of it is actually real. It is a magnificent display of color, sound and sensation. Investigate your mind, it is the root of it all.

As for contemplation, it is like a glass of water, there is no benefit for your thirst unless you drink it. And after you have you will see what color, sound and sensation really are, and how serious difficult situations really are in the grand scope.

Life is a teacher. Learn from your experiences, be thankful for this life. Forge mental fortitude in the flames of gain and loss. A small boat is tossed around by the waves, you can't fix the waves, but you can improve the size and strength of the boat.

Be well.

</life_advice>
When you expound these non-definitive teaching on a dzogchen forum, have you associate the teaching as non-definitive? What is the quality of dzogchen teaching are you trying to communicate to followers of other tradition of buddhism which are definitive?
You're barking up the wrong tree.

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Jyoti
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm
At any rate, the last time you posted here some years ago there was a huge language barrier issue, so hopefully we can remain mindful of that.
I am not aware I have change any of my language now as compare to that time. And I basically intented to use certain preferred term hoping my audience read the meaning rather than just word. In buddhism we emphasize the reliance on the meaning, and not the words, I don't care how good you may be at words, if you can't perceive the meaning, it simply mean you don't know. As a practitioner of dzogchen should have the insight to see the truth in other tradition, ultimately it is the about the teaching, not the tradition, nor the people that matters in a discussion.

krodha
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:40 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm
At any rate, the last time you posted here some years ago there was a huge language barrier issue, so hopefully we can remain mindful of that.
I am not aware I have change any of my language now as compare to that time. And I basically intented to use certain preferred term hoping my audience read the meaning rather than just word. In buddhism we emphasize the reliance on the meaning, and not the words, I don't care how good you may be at words, if you can't perceive the meaning, it simply mean you don't know. As a practitioner of dzogchen should have the insight to see the truth in other tradition, ultimately it is the about the teaching, not the tradition, nor the people that matters in a discussion.
I am saying we should be mindful that it is possible we can be either (i) talking past each other, or (ii) saying the same thing without realizing it.

For instance, translating jñāna as "intellect." You could be representing the intended meaning of the term correctly even though "intellect" really does fail to communicate that meaning. Or you could be misinterpreting jñāna altogether, so far I cannot tell.

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Jyoti
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:58 am

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:40 pm
For instance, translating jñāna as "intellect." You could be representing the intended meaning of the term correctly even though "intellect" really does fail to communicate that meaning. Or you could be misinterpreting jñāna altogether, so far I cannot tell.
That's why I said you don't know the meaning of jnana, the choice of word is not important, there is already the whole context of meaning you have failed to grasp previously.

marting
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by marting » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:07 am

Many Oms and Namastes Jyoti,
Jyoti wrote:That's why I said you don't know the meaning of jnana, the choice of word is not important, there is already the whole context of meaning you have failed to grasp previously.
How can we grasp the meaning, and what happens after the grasping of said meaning?

climb-up
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by climb-up » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:35 am

I'm a little confused by the argument(?) going on.
Like, literally, I don't know what the argument is about. :shrug:

But I am genuinely appreciative for the responses here. Everyone has been very helpful.
Thank you. :namaste:

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Jyoti
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:14 am

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm
Jñāna is a function of rig pa [vidyā]. If you are resting in rigpa your modality of cognition is jñāna. Just as when you are in marigpa your modality of cognition is vijñāna [rnam shes].
The last point you mentioned also apply to the state of clinging to intrinsic awareness of dzogchen. The yogacarins do not abide in the base/consciousness (intrinsic awareness, thusness, dharmata, nirvana or any other terms belonging to the base) but abiding in the function/jnana alone.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:36 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:14 am
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm
Jñāna is a function of rig pa [vidyā]. If you are resting in rigpa your modality of cognition is jñāna. Just as when you are in marigpa your modality of cognition is vijñāna [rnam shes].
The last point you mentioned also apply to the state of clinging to intrinsic awareness of dzogchen.
He is talking about rigpa. Vidyā = rigpa = intrinsic awareness (a horrible mistranslation of rang rig, aka rang gi rig pa, that is, one's vidyā).
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

florin
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by florin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:45 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm
At any rate, the last time you posted here some years ago there was a huge language barrier issue, so hopefully we can remain mindful of that.
I am not aware I have change any of my language now as compare to that time.
Well, i would say that is the problem.
I for one don't understand a word you say.
Maybe others do but i don't.
I could be wrong but it looks like there is a corpus of literature of chinese provenance that is largely unexplored or unkown to the western scholars and which is now somehow made to appear relevant to the whole dzogchen debate.
Is it relevant? I am not so sure.

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by Jyoti » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:45 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:45 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm
At any rate, the last time you posted here some years ago there was a huge language barrier issue, so hopefully we can remain mindful of that.
I am not aware I have change any of my language now as compare to that time.
Well, i would say that is the problem.
I for one don't understand a word you say.
Maybe others do but i don't.
I could be wrong but it looks like there is a corpus of literature of chinese provenance that is largely unexplored or unkown to the western scholars and which is now somehow made to appear relevant to the whole dzogchen debate.
Is it relevant? I am not so sure.
The teaching is to rely on the meaning, not on the words alone. If one doesn't know the meaning, then whatever choices of words or style of expression would not make the person apprehend. The requirement for the meaning that I have try to communicate six years ago in this forum required the realisation of the knowledge (vidya) of thusness (tathata), and attained mastery of this knowledge, up to being able to recollect this knowledge in the mind independently, in order to directly experience the dividing line between the base and the function (mind/intellect).

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by boda » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:37 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:53 pm
Hello good people, :hi:
I hope this question isn't either too stupid, or inappropriate (if it is the latter, please let me know & I'll delete it).

We all get distracted in out lives and all have times that we get completely lost and/or emotionally hijacked.
It seems like it could be a good idea to practice guruyoga, get into a state of contemplation, and then intentionally think about the type of situation that would trigger me, with the goal of being more ready to integrate contemplation into those situations.

On the other hand it seems like that might not be a good idea, being focused on the future or past and being like a form of conditioning.

Any thoughts?
Any suggestions, other than keep practicing, for those difficult situations that get you before you even realize you got got?

Any suggestions or thoughts are much appreciated. :heart:
Thanks.
It’s a very good question.

Short answer is to simply practice mindfulness. This way you’ll be most responsive to situations and also attuned to you own internal feelings and so less likely to get emotionally hijacked.

Problem with ruminating over particular situations is that we may be constructing a narrative which can interfere with situations in life when thay arise. You can often tell when people do this. They come at you with preconceived notions and attitudes and don’t listen to what you’re actually saying. I know that I do this and often fail to catch myself. Practice practice practice!

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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:27 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:52 pm
Life is a teacher. Learn from your experiences, be thankful for this life. Forge mental fortitude in the flames of gain and loss. A small boat is tossed around by the waves, you can't fix the waves, but you can improve the size and strength of the boat.
:twothumbsup:

Trying these days not to apply an antidote.
Maybe not so friendly or kind to something that just walked in my front door.
Just trying to say to hate, fear, despair - oh, hi.
Want to shake hands?
The monsters are the ones that need to speak, not me.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

climb-up
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Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?

Post by climb-up » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:36 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:37 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:53 pm
Hello good people, :hi:
I hope this question isn't either too stupid, or inappropriate (if it is the latter, please let me know & I'll delete it).

We all get distracted in out lives and all have times that we get completely lost and/or emotionally hijacked.
It seems like it could be a good idea to practice guruyoga, get into a state of contemplation, and then intentionally think about the type of situation that would trigger me, with the goal of being more ready to integrate contemplation into those situations.

On the other hand it seems like that might not be a good idea, being focused on the future or past and being like a form of conditioning.

Any thoughts?
Any suggestions, other than keep practicing, for those difficult situations that get you before you even realize you got got?

Any suggestions or thoughts are much appreciated. :heart:
Thanks.
It’s a very good question.

Short answer is to simply practice mindfulness. This way you’ll be most responsive to situations and also attuned to you own internal feelings and so less likely to get emotionally hijacked.

Problem with ruminating over particular situations is that we may be constructing a narrative which can interfere with situations in life when thay arise. You can often tell when people do this. They come at you with preconceived notions and attitudes and don’t listen to what you’re actually saying. I know that I do this and often fail to catch myself. Practice practice practice!
That does make a lot of sense.
I have noticed that, related I think to what Johnny Dangerous was saying earlier, when these situations do arise then, even if I'm hijacked in the moment, I am able to remember quicker to be mindful and relax and then I have plenty to work with without having to construct a narrative (and deconstructing the narrative I may have already made).

Thinking about it now, perhaps the question was based in worrying about future emotional hijacks. In which case, maybe thats something to be more mindful of too.

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