Instant Presence and Physical Pain

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Reibeam
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Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm

Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?

My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am

Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 am

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
So the Buddha was lying when he said that liberation is the end of suffering?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Reibeam
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:08 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
The question was not posed as a means to "escape" pain at all and your right it will still arise. I am referring more to using an intense experience of sensation to be in instant presence with. In the state of contemplation the pain still arises but the suffering stops.

I was interested in how others may have related to similar experiences of sensation like this.

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Reibeam
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:09 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 am
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
So the Buddha was lying when he said that liberation is the end of suffering?

/magnus
:smile:

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KathyLauren
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by KathyLauren » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm

It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")

If your body is experiencing an injury, you will experience pain. Wishing that the pain would stop is suffering. Experiencing pain with presence would include noting the pain, recognizing and taking whatever action is necessary to preserve health and life (because a bodhisattva has vowed to make the best use of this precious human birth to help all sentient beings), and then letting it be.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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florin
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by florin » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm
It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")

If your body is experiencing an injury, you will experience pain. Wishing that the pain would stop is suffering. Experiencing pain with presence would include noting the pain, recognizing and taking whatever action is necessary to preserve health and life (because a bodhisattva has vowed to make the best use of this precious human birth to help all sentient beings), and then letting it be.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I think the OP was asked in the context of dzogchen state. Instant presence refers to that.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm
It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
Hi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:32 pm

Reibeam wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?

My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
As a matter of fact I passed a kidney stone not long ago
:cry: Pain there certainly was.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Reibeam wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?

My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
Pain killers won’t send you into hell.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:34 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:22 pm
Reibeam wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?

My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
Pain killers won’t send you into hell.
Kidney stones are hell.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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KathyLauren
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by KathyLauren » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm
It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
Hi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.

/magnus
I have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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heart
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:29 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm
It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
Hi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.

/magnus
I have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
It is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 am
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
So the Buddha was lying when he said that liberation is the end of suffering?

/magnus
Suffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.

KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:59 pm

Reibeam wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:08 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
The question was not posed as a means to "escape" pain at all and your right it will still arise. I am referring more to using an intense experience of sensation to be in instant presence with. In the state of contemplation the pain still arises but the suffering stops.

I was interested in how others may have related to similar experiences of sensation like this.
It does not need to be stop, because suffering is of the imaginary nature which is false. Just view physical pain as the combination of the dependent arising nature and the absolute nature. The unity of the two truths, by realizing this is the arriving at the cessation of 'suffering'.

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heart
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 am
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:41 am
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
So the Buddha was lying when he said that liberation is the end of suffering?

/magnus
Suffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.

KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
I am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 am


So the Buddha was lying when he said that liberation is the end of suffering?

/magnus
Suffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.

KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
I am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.

/magnus
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning. Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.

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heart
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:31 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pm


Suffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.

KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
I am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.

/magnus
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning. Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
I am afraid I don't agree with your equalising jnana and intelligence, intelligence is mind and jnana is beyond the mind. Pain and suffering is also within the realms of mind.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:56 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm
The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning.

Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:

Ignorance and knowledge are respectively suffering and the absence of suffering.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

rai
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by rai » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:30 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:29 pm
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm


Hi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.

/magnus
I have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
It is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.

/magnus
not his, he just mentioned he heard it from some other marathon runner

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