Instant Presence and Physical Pain

[heart]

I have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

It is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.

/magnus

not his, he just mentioned he heard it from some other marathon runner

Ok, I stand corrected, but nevertheless it is marathon not Buddhism.

/magnus

[KathyLauren]

I have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

It is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.

/magnus

not his, he just mentioned he heard it from some other marathon runner

Correct. It is frequently attributed to Murakami, but the book to from which it was taken ("What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") was only published in 2007. The quote is documented much earlier than that in Alcoholics Anonymous literature. Murakami just heard it somewhere and used it, like I did.

And, while not Buddhist, it speaks well to the difference between pain and suffering.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[heart]

It is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.

/magnus

not his, he just mentioned he heard it from some other marathon runner

Correct. It is frequently attributed to Murakami, but the book to from which it was taken ("What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") was only published in 2007. The quote is documented much earlier than that in Alcoholics Anonymous literature. Murakami just heard it somewhere and used it, like I did.

And, while not Buddhist, it speaks well to the difference between pain and suffering.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

[Aryjna]

I think there is some confusion over the meaning of the word 'pain' by those that think that someone in rigpa feels pain. Pain is by definition unpleasant, so it is impossible for someone in rigpa to feel it.

[Pero]

not his, he just mentioned he heard it from some other marathon runner

Correct. It is frequently attributed to Murakami, but the book to from which it was taken ("What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") was only published in 2007. The quote is documented much earlier than that in Alcoholics Anonymous literature. Murakami just heard it somewhere and used it, like I did.

And, while not Buddhist, it speaks well to the difference between pain and suffering.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

[Malcolm]

I think there is some confusion over the meaning of the word 'pain' by those that think that someone in rigpa feels pain. Pain is by definition unpleasant, so it is impossible for someone in rigpa to feel it.

Why do you think a person who has knowledge of the basis cannot feel pain? Certainly, last year, ChNN was completely miserable and in intense pain. Are you asserting that he was not "in rigpa" throughout this time?

[KathyLauren]

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Pain is just a necessary physical sensation. Suffering in the case of pain is (or is caused by) the aversion to pain. It is perfectly possible, though difficult without practice, to experience pain without the aversion. No aversion, no suffering. This is the Second Noble Truth.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[Malcolm]

Correct. It is frequently attributed to Murakami, but the book to from which it was taken ("What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") was only published in 2007. The quote is documented much earlier than that in Alcoholics Anonymous literature. Murakami just heard it somewhere and used it, like I did.

And, while not Buddhist, it speaks well to the difference between pain and suffering.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

All painful sensations of the body are the ripening of past negative karma. All pleasant sensations of the mind are the ripening of past positive karma. Even what we consider negative mental sensations are actually the ripening of negative karma in the body, and vice versa for pleasant sensations of the body — they are actually the ripening of positive karma in the mind.

[Aryjna]

I think there is some confusion over the meaning of the word 'pain' by those that think that someone in rigpa feels pain. Pain is by definition unpleasant, so it is impossible for someone in rigpa to feel it.

Why do you think a person who has knowledge of the basis cannot feel pain? Certainly, last year, ChNN was completely miserable and in intense pain. Are you asserting that he was not "in rigpa" throughout this time?

I was just reading something by ChNNR on this exact subject when I saw this thread. I'm not sure if I should mention it here as it is fro ma restricted book (though not really restricted material in itself), but I'm pretty sure it makes what I said above clear.

[heart]

Correct. It is frequently attributed to Murakami, but the book to from which it was taken ("What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") was only published in 2007. The quote is documented much earlier than that in Alcoholics Anonymous literature. Murakami just heard it somewhere and used it, like I did.

And, while not Buddhist, it speaks well to the difference between pain and suffering.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

I am pretty sure suffering is a sensation. It is true, as long as one has a physical body one can experience physical pain and suffering. Also without a physical body one can experience mental pain and mental suffering. Pain and suffering are connected.

/magnus

[heart]

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Pain is just a necessary physical sensation. Suffering in the case of pain is (or is caused by) the aversion to pain. It is perfectly possible, though difficult without practice, to experience pain without the aversion. No aversion, no suffering. This is the Second Noble Truth.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

I think you are conflating marathon with Buddhism, but whatever ever you want to believe is fine with me.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

I think there is some confusion over the meaning of the word 'pain' by those that think that someone in rigpa feels pain. Pain is by definition unpleasant, so it is impossible for someone in rigpa to feel it.

Why do you think a person who has knowledge of the basis cannot feel pain? Certainly, last year, ChNN was completely miserable and in intense pain. Are you asserting that he was not "in rigpa" throughout this time?

I was just reading something by ChNNR on this exact subject when I saw this thread. I'm not sure if I should mention it here as it is fro ma restricted book (though not really restricted material in itself), but I'm pretty sure it makes what I said above clear.

Which book, what page?

[Pero]

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

All painful sensations of the body are the ripening of past negative karma. All pleasant sensations of the mind are the ripening of past positive karma. Even what we consider negative mental sensations are actually the ripening of negative karma in the body, and vice versa for pleasant sensations of the body — they are actually the ripening of positive karma in the mind.

I'm not sure I'm getting you. What you are saying is that karma ripens both in the body and mind?

[Pero]

Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

I am pretty sure suffering is a sensation. It is true, as long as one has a physical body one can experience physical pain and suffering. Also without a physical body one can experience mental pain and mental suffering. Pain and suffering are connected.

/magnus

I meant more like mental suffering. That is not a sensation to me, but perhaps I do not understand the word sensation correctly.

[Aryjna]

Why do you think a person who has knowledge of the basis cannot feel pain? Certainly, last year, ChNN was completely miserable and in intense pain. Are you asserting that he was not "in rigpa" throughout this time?

I was just reading something by ChNNR on this exact subject when I saw this thread. I'm not sure if I should mention it here as it is fro ma restricted book (though not really restricted material in itself), but I'm pretty sure it makes what I said above clear.

Which book, what page?

In Mandarava Tsalung, page 60. Talking about someone who is always in instant presence.

[heart]

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

I am pretty sure suffering is a sensation. It is true, as long as one has a physical body one can experience physical pain and suffering. Also without a physical body one can experience mental pain and mental suffering. Pain and suffering are connected.

/magnus

I meant more like mental suffering. That is not a sensation to me, but perhaps I do not understand the word sensation correctly.

How about mental pain? Is it a sensation?

/magnus

[Malcolm]

I was just reading something by ChNNR on this exact subject when I saw this thread. I'm not sure if I should mention it here as it is fro ma restricted book (though not really restricted material in itself), but I'm pretty sure it makes what I said above clear.

Which book, what page?

In Mandarava Tsalung, page 60. Talking about someone who is always in instant presence.

Ok, this is a different use of the word "rig pa" -- this is remaining in a moment by moment state of unfabricated consciousness 24/7/365, i.e., a buddha.

When anyone is such a state, while in that state, they are free of the ripening of karma.

[Malcolm]

Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

All painful sensations of the body are the ripening of past negative karma. All pleasant sensations of the mind are the ripening of past positive karma. Even what we consider negative mental sensations are actually the ripening of negative karma in the body, and vice versa for pleasant sensations of the body — they are actually the ripening of positive karma in the mind.

I'm not sure I'm getting you. What you are saying is that karma ripens both in the body and mind?

All painful sensations are the ripening of negative karma in the body. All pleasant sensations are the ripening of positive karma in the mind.

[Malcolm]

I am pretty sure suffering is a sensation. It is true, as long as one has a physical body one can experience physical pain and suffering. Also without a physical body one can experience mental pain and mental suffering. Pain and suffering are connected.

/magnus

I meant more like mental suffering. That is not a sensation to me, but perhaps I do not understand the word sensation correctly.

How about mental pain? Is it a sensation?

/magnus

Pain is, as we know well, the suffering of suffering.

[heart]

I meant more like mental suffering. That is not a sensation to me, but perhaps I do not understand the word sensation correctly.

How about mental pain? Is it a sensation?

/magnus

Pain is, as we know well, the suffering of suffering.

Indeed.

/magnus