Instant Presence and Physical Pain

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Jyoti
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:28 pm
This is the non-grasping of the meaning. '
You seem to regard Sakyamuni as the only Buddha and only source of reliable teachings.

You did not personally hear him teach, nor did you hear him explain his teachings.
You are totally reliant on teachers who have transmitted the scriptures.
Without those teachers you have nothing.

You misunderstand Vajrayana and Dzogchen to the point where you are trying desperately to assert an understanding of the sky using someone else's description of how Shakyamuni described the rocks. Because you are locked into that limitation, people can't explain anything to you.
Your view point is valid for a beginner on this definitive teaching due to the requirement for direct introduction. But the definitive teaching of mahayana is based on the meaning of the third noble truth, which is the state of the cessation of suffering. This mean the teaching assume the audience already attain the knowledge (vidya) that is required for the arriving of the meaning of the third truth.

Therefore, my standpoint is the same as the definitive teaching of mahayana, that is, I am not here to learn the meaning (from someone or teacher), and I didn't assume anyone here need to learn the meaning either. So this is the view that everyone is equalled as buddhas, this is a needed view because in the definitive teaching, there is no 'sentient beings' and no 'sufferings', as these are only the words of the provisional dharma, their real meaning is 'buddhas' and 'bliss' respectively.

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:06 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:28 pm
This is the non-grasping of the meaning. '
You seem to regard Sakyamuni as the only Buddha and only source of reliable teachings.

You did not personally hear him teach, nor did you hear him explain his teachings.
You are totally reliant on teachers who have transmitted the scriptures.
Without those teachers you have nothing.

You misunderstand Vajrayana and Dzogchen to the point where you are trying desperately to assert an understanding of the sky using someone else's description of how Shakyamuni described the rocks. Because you are locked into that limitation, people can't explain anything to you.
Your view point is valid for a beginner on this definitive teaching due to the requirement for direct introduction. But the definitive teaching of mahayana is based on the meaning of the third noble truth, which is the state of the cessation of suffering. This mean the teaching assume the audience already attain the knowledge (vidya) that is required for the arriving of the meaning of the third truth.

Therefore, my standpoint is the same as the definitive teaching of mahayana, that is, I am not here to learn the meaning (from someone or teacher), and I didn't assume anyone here need to learn the meaning either. So this is the view that everyone is equalled as buddhas, this is a needed view because in the definitive teaching, there is no 'sentient beings' and no 'sufferings', as these are only the words of the provisional dharma, their real meaning is 'buddhas' and 'bliss' respectively.

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Jyoti, you are really going down a strange path with the assertion that in definitive sūtras there is no mention of samsara or sentient beings. It simply isn't true.

Also, this conversation is completely off topic in this forum.

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:15 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:28 pm
This is the non-grasping of the meaning. '
You seem to regard Sakyamuni as the only Buddha and only source of reliable teachings.

You did not personally hear him teach, nor did you hear him explain his teachings.
You are totally reliant on teachers who have transmitted the scriptures.
Without those teachers you have nothing.

You misunderstand Vajrayana and Dzogchen to the point where you are trying desperately to assert an understanding of the sky using someone else's description of how Shakyamuni described the rocks. Because you are locked into that limitation, people can't explain anything to you.
Your view point is valid for a beginner on this definitive teaching due to the requirement for direct introduction. But the definitive teaching of mahayana is based on the meaning of the third noble truth, which is the state of the cessation of suffering. This mean the teaching assume the audience already attain the knowledge (vidya) that is required for the arriving of the meaning of the third truth.

Therefore, my standpoint is the same as the definitive teaching of mahayana, that is, I am not here to learn the meaning (from someone or teacher), and I didn't assume anyone here need to learn the meaning either. So this is the view that everyone is equalled as buddhas, this is a needed view because in the definitive teaching, there is no 'sentient beings' and no 'sufferings', as these are only the words of the provisional dharma, their real meaning is 'buddhas' and 'bliss' respectively.

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.

Everything you posit is as a result of having heeded a person who persuaded you to heed what they reported someone else having once taught about not heeding anyone at all.

So, if you pay no heed to anyone here, regardless of your relative understanding, why bother repeating to us all what others have already refuted successfully several times.
If it is part of your spiritual path to explore Vajrayana and Dozgchen you will keep on being told you must have a Guru. Feel free to repeat what you have repeated already several times - you will still need a Guru.
Maybe you would be better discussing things on Dhammawheel. Seriously.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Simon E.
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:17 pm

This is getting ridiculous. It's just trolling.
A belated New Years Resolution 2018.

No posts or responses to posts outside of the Vajrayana forums. Its just a waste of time.

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Jyoti
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:06 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm


You seem to regard Sakyamuni as the only Buddha and only source of reliable teachings.

You did not personally hear him teach, nor did you hear him explain his teachings.
You are totally reliant on teachers who have transmitted the scriptures.
Without those teachers you have nothing.

You misunderstand Vajrayana and Dzogchen to the point where you are trying desperately to assert an understanding of the sky using someone else's description of how Shakyamuni described the rocks. Because you are locked into that limitation, people can't explain anything to you.
Your view point is valid for a beginner on this definitive teaching due to the requirement for direct introduction. But the definitive teaching of mahayana is based on the meaning of the third noble truth, which is the state of the cessation of suffering. This mean the teaching assume the audience already attain the knowledge (vidya) that is required for the arriving of the meaning of the third truth.

Therefore, my standpoint is the same as the definitive teaching of mahayana, that is, I am not here to learn the meaning (from someone or teacher), and I didn't assume anyone here need to learn the meaning either. So this is the view that everyone is equalled as buddhas, this is a needed view because in the definitive teaching, there is no 'sentient beings' and no 'sufferings', as these are only the words of the provisional dharma, their real meaning is 'buddhas' and 'bliss' respectively.

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Jyoti, you are really going down a strange path with the assertion that in definitive sūtras there is no mention of samsara or sentient beings. It simply isn't true.

Also, this conversation is completely off topic in this forum.

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:
It's is not off topic, but intimately related to the whole topic. Because in the definitive sutras, 'sentient being' and 'suffering' are just words, their real meaning is 'buddha' and 'bliss' respectively. Therefore, we cannot pretend to be in the position of sentient beings when discussing the definitive sutras, and because of that, we do not need another person or teacher to guide us, so our only choice is to rely on the dharma. This is the reason, the four reliances is not optional when discussing the definitive teaching.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:25 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:17 pm
This is getting ridiculous. It's just trolling.
I was hoping it was just bull in china shop, but you may well be right. ;)

Either way, maybe if the message gets across to someone that for Vajrayana and Dzogchen, a Guru is needed, it is worth all the effort to drag things back to relevance. Somehow though..........
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by DGA » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:27 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 pm
It's is not off topic, but intimately related to the whole topic. Because in the definitive sutras, 'sentient being' and 'suffering' are just words, their real meaning is 'buddha' and 'bliss' respectively. Therefore, we cannot pretend to be in the position of sentient beings when discussing the definitive sutras, and because of that, we do not need another person or teacher to guide us, so our only choice is to rely on the dharma. This is the reason, the four reliances is not optional when discussing the definitive teaching.
You are in the Dzogchen subforum.

What you are saying about the sutras is completely irrelevant to Dzogchen.

I'd argue that it contradicts the sutras, too, but that's a topic for a different forum.

Try this:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27114

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:28 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:06 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm


Your view point is valid for a beginner on this definitive teaching due to the requirement for direct introduction. But the definitive teaching of mahayana is based on the meaning of the third noble truth, which is the state of the cessation of suffering. This mean the teaching assume the audience already attain the knowledge (vidya) that is required for the arriving of the meaning of the third truth.

Therefore, my standpoint is the same as the definitive teaching of mahayana, that is, I am not here to learn the meaning (from someone or teacher), and I didn't assume anyone here need to learn the meaning either. So this is the view that everyone is equalled as buddhas, this is a needed view because in the definitive teaching, there is no 'sentient beings' and no 'sufferings', as these are only the words of the provisional dharma, their real meaning is 'buddhas' and 'bliss' respectively.

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Jyoti, you are really going down a strange path with the assertion that in definitive sūtras there is no mention of samsara or sentient beings. It simply isn't true.

Also, this conversation is completely off topic in this forum.

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:
It's is not off topic, but intimately related to the whole topic. Because in the definitive sutras, 'sentient being' and 'suffering' are just words, their real meaning is 'buddha' and 'bliss' respectively. Therefore, we cannot pretend to be in the position of sentient beings when discussing the definitive sutras, and because of that, we do not need another person or teacher to guide us, so our only choice is to rely on the dharma. This is the reason, the four reliances is not optional when discussing the definitive teaching.
:jawdrop:

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Pero » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:33 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:17 pm
This is getting ridiculous. It's just trolling.
Ha, if only. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:15 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:00 pm


You are in the wrong forum, then lady. The ultimate authority in Vajrayāna is the guru.
Dzogchen is of definitive teaching, vajrayana teaching is not definitive, that's why the latter need a teacher. This is the reason I never post in vajrayana related forum. Those of definitive teaching does not need a teacher, unless it is about direct introduction. But we are here for the discussion of the definitive dharma, not about direct introduction, which I did not assume my audience need it from me, nor I need it. The view point of definitive teaching does not automatically assume someone is ignorant, unless as proven by his/own words. Thus, there is no need for a teacher, because there was never an assumption that someone need a teacher.
You do,even in ChNNR's Dzogchen:
http://melong.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ror97c.pdf
(p2)
"This morning I have two topics to talk about. The first is related to the learning and receiving of the transmission of the practice of Guru Tragphur. Everybody has more or less learned how to do this prac-tice. We do not have only Guru Tragphur, but also Dakini Simha mukha, in our thun practice. We have them in the thun because when we do refuge and the cultivation of bodhicitta in the Vajrayana system, we say namo guru bhya, namo deva bhya, namo dakini bhya. These are the three roots.
This system of the three roots is very diffused in the Nyingmapa tradition and today it is also diffused in the Kagyüpa tradition. In other traditions they don’t use the name ‘three roots’. It is called three roots because the first and most important is Guruyoga. Guruyoga in Tibetan is chinlab kyi tsawa lama, because tsawa means root, the root of the blessing; that through which we receive the blessing. First of all we receive the blessing of recognizing or discovering our real nature. Secondly we are in that state and succeed to integrate in that state. All are related to transmission. We receive transmission from the teacher
and we always apply Guruyoga. That is why it is the root.
"
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft. It's fine for someone who choose their life in guru bakti, but let's not make it a universal rule for all. The best guru yoga is manifesting the knowledge in life, these ChNNR's words still ringing in my ears for 20 years.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:42 pm

Trolling doesn't stop being trolling just because it is sincerely wrong.
A one-sided debate with one side relentlessly ploughing on against all evidence and deaf to all reasoned argument is also a form of trolling.
A belated New Years Resolution 2018.

No posts or responses to posts outside of the Vajrayana forums. Its just a waste of time.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:44 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:15 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:05 pm


Dzogchen is of definitive teaching, vajrayana teaching is not definitive, that's why the latter need a teacher. This is the reason I never post in vajrayana related forum. Those of definitive teaching does not need a teacher, unless it is about direct introduction. But we are here for the discussion of the definitive dharma, not about direct introduction, which I did not assume my audience need it from me, nor I need it. The view point of definitive teaching does not automatically assume someone is ignorant, unless as proven by his/own words. Thus, there is no need for a teacher, because there was never an assumption that someone need a teacher.
You do,even in ChNNR's Dzogchen:
http://melong.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ror97c.pdf
(p2)
"This morning I have two topics to talk about. The first is related to the learning and receiving of the transmission of the practice of Guru Tragphur. Everybody has more or less learned how to do this prac-tice. We do not have only Guru Tragphur, but also Dakini Simha mukha, in our thun practice. We have them in the thun because when we do refuge and the cultivation of bodhicitta in the Vajrayana system, we say namo guru bhya, namo deva bhya, namo dakini bhya. These are the three roots.
This system of the three roots is very diffused in the Nyingmapa tradition and today it is also diffused in the Kagyüpa tradition. In other traditions they don’t use the name ‘three roots’. It is called three roots because the first and most important is Guruyoga. Guruyoga in Tibetan is chinlab kyi tsawa lama, because tsawa means root, the root of the blessing; that through which we receive the blessing. First of all we receive the blessing of recognizing or discovering our real nature. Secondly we are in that state and succeed to integrate in that state. All are related to transmission. We receive transmission from the teacher
and we always apply Guruyoga. That is why it is the root.
"
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft. It's fine for someone who choose their life in guru bakti, but let's not make it a universal rule for all. The best guru yoga is manifesting the knowledge in life, these ChNNR's words still ringing in my ears for 20 years.
You clearly havent been paying attention to that ringing in your ears.
This thread is an example of a very strange diversion from the path.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft.
When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:49 pm

You can read an earlier version of the Jyoti dharma in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9982

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:03 pm

Its a real insight into the mindset that makes Malaysia so vulnerable to distortions like Dolgyal worship.
A belated New Years Resolution 2018.

No posts or responses to posts outside of the Vajrayana forums. Its just a waste of time.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft.
When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus
Everyone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Virgo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:19 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pm
I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
Thank you. Have a nice day.

Kevin

:thumbsup:

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by TaTa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft.
When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus
Everyone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
I sincerely wish you to stop deluding yourself and follow an authentic teacher and teaching its never to late. Have a nice day. The rest would like to follow with the op

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by DGA » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:31 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft. It's fine for someone who choose their life in guru bakti, but let's not make it a universal rule for all. The best guru yoga is manifesting the knowledge in life, these ChNNR's words still ringing in my ears for 20 years.
What do you mean by guru bakti in this context?

Does it relate to the practice of ati guru yoga, apropos of ChNN's teaching?

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Sennin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:44 pm

Just reflecting a bit and I'm not so certain that person who holds the teachings in fervent regard and devotion will accomplish the same level as someone who has overcome all doubt in understanding the ground, path, and fruition.

I dont know what the Holy Writ says but it seems that a person who has overcome doubt by study and contemplation may be able to proceeded along more swiftly. Hence the realization of the past Vidyadharas and Panditas compared to the situation we have now.

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

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