Instant Presence and Physical Pain

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Mantrik
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:52 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:21 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:00 am
In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Dear, I do not think the four reliances is rejecting a Master. Not to focus on the outer individual-personality-form is not the same as rejecting, perhaps its' to not feed dualistic perception (perceiver-perceived). But Guru is essential. Guru is Buddha - is awaken.
There is said if we perceive a human who is teaching us something, then we get teachings from a human. By Bodhisattva, it will be teaching from a Bodhisattva , or Buddha, it will be Awaken Nature teaching.

Then:
“Some of us really are looking for a master to follow. We think that someone out there can “fix” us and make our lives better. Others of us avoid teachers, often because of personal issues about authority figures. Or, we might think we are smart enough to “get” this by ourselves, and we don’t need anyone telling us what to believe.

Both of these extremes are pitfalls, and they are both rooted in the same self-other dichotomy, the same delusion.

Clinging to something or avoiding something both come from seeing oneself as separate from everything else. Liberation from this delusion is enlightenment.”

Again this is not rejecting the Guru, which is not just Nirmanakaya.
This is total gibberish and has no more place in a Dzogchen thread than the trolling posts it is in response to.
I thought it was just me. I'm getting too old for gibberish nested within circumlocutory abstract opaqueness when on a quest for mindful presence and clarity. That's me being aware, on topic, of course, not at all me being metameta discursive. ;)

Talking of which, this thread came to mind when I saw this topic:
viewtopic.php?t=9778
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

muni
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by muni » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:00 pm

Lets' say it briefly: the Nirmanakaya is dependent on 'our karmic possibilities'. By that there is no presence but dualistic vision.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Simon E.
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:25 pm

Say it as briefly as you like. It has nothing to do with Dzogchen.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

Simon E.
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:28 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:52 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:21 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:00 am


Dear, I do not think the four reliances is rejecting a Master. Not to focus on the outer individual-personality-form is not the same as rejecting, perhaps its' to not feed dualistic perception (perceiver-perceived). But Guru is essential. Guru is Buddha - is awaken.
There is said if we perceive a human who is teaching us something, then we get teachings from a human. By Bodhisattva, it will be teaching from a Bodhisattva , or Buddha, it will be Awaken Nature teaching.

Then:
“Some of us really are looking for a master to follow. We think that someone out there can “fix” us and make our lives better. Others of us avoid teachers, often because of personal issues about authority figures. Or, we might think we are smart enough to “get” this by ourselves, and we don’t need anyone telling us what to believe.

Both of these extremes are pitfalls, and they are both rooted in the same self-other dichotomy, the same delusion.

Clinging to something or avoiding something both come from seeing oneself as separate from everything else. Liberation from this delusion is enlightenment.”

Again this is not rejecting the Guru, which is not just Nirmanakaya.
This is total gibberish and has no more place in a Dzogchen thread than the trolling posts it is in response to.
I thought it was just me. I'm getting too old for gibberish nested within circumlocutory abstract opaqueness when on a quest for mindful presence and clarity. That's me being aware, on topic, of course, not at all me being metameta discursive. ;)

Talking of which, this thread came to mind when I saw this topic:
viewtopic.php?t=9778


I miss Sonam... :(
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Mantrik
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:28 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:28 pm

I miss Sonam... :(
Me too. A kind soul. _/\_
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Simon E.
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:39 pm

Aye.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Harimoo
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Harimoo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:47 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:28 pm
I miss Sonam... :(
I didn't know he left us.

Norwegian
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Norwegian » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:48 am

Harimoo wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:47 am
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:28 pm
I miss Sonam... :(
I didn't know he left us.
He passed away recently:
viewtopic.php?t=27088

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:59 am

May he know Great Peace.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

oldbob
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by oldbob » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:10 am

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1178&p=430647#p430647

and

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27594#p429178

It's as Reibeam describes it.


"My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience"

:good:

Good thread - all good postings - the view of an eagle in the sky is different from a frog at the bottom of a well. Each is correct in their own dimension. No one can judge who is the frog and who the eagle. Allowing for perspective allows one to appreciate all views without judgement.

In Dzogchen, in Instant Presense, you are not closed to anything that arises or doesn't. So intense physical pain is grist for the instant presence mill, exactly the same as any other occurance, or non-occurance. So with instant presence you pay attention to the pain and without any characterization as this or that, you leave it (in a non-dual way) to be what it is.

Your job (in a non-dual way) in Integration with pain, is exactly the same as integration with anything else.

Then you don't have the pain of pain, or suffering of suffering.

One taste is not so easy! Integrating with what is pleasant is much easier than integrating with what is unpleasant. The principle is exactly the same. With practice over time it gets easier.

This is not the same as Rushen when you manifest whatever arises as fast as it arises. Integration in Rushen comes at the end when you are exhausted and you lie down. Of course if you loose your common sense and try to fly from the roof down, instead of the from the ground up, maybe you will fall and hurt yourself and then have the opportunity to practice integration with physical pain whether you were seeking this or not.

Rushen is best practiced under a teachers guidance.

:heart:

oldbob

Crazywisdom
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:22 pm
Reibeam wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?

My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
Pain killers won’t send you into hell.
Kidney stones are hell.
I believe you.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

oldbob
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by oldbob » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:22 pm

oldbob wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:16 pm
Crazywisdom is correct.

Of course there is no benefit to suffering and taking medicine to avoid medical issues / pain is just common sense.

In the relative world - heaven and hell exist. The Dzogchen path - integrating ALL experiance with Instant Presense - doesn't mean being passive in the face of difficulties. Awareness means that you activly try to avoid difficulties before they manifest.

ChNNR has taken many courses of Western medicine and I believe this has preserved his life. Thank you Western medicine.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

If I make a mistake and cut myself while chopping vegitables, I say to myself "uh oh I am leaking" and put a bandaid. I do my best NOT to make mistakes.

When unaviodable pain occurrs, I do my best to integrate it with instant presence as I am taking quick action to avoid the pain.

Doing my best - I am content.

Putting your finger in a flame to show you are realized is very painful if you are not.

Certainly miricles are skillful means to create faith in unbelivers - but that is not the Dzogchen path.

In Dzogchen you have Direct Introduction, Developing Confidence, and Continuing - (show up and take the teachings) then - integrating everything with Instant Presence you can avoid the pain of pain and the suffering of suffering. This is a real miricle you can experiance for yourself.

Realization is shown by unlimited great kindness - as shown by ChNNR and all the Masters.

:heart:

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