Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm »

Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pm
heart wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm
Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft.
When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus
Everyone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
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climb-up
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:09 pm
Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pm
heart wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm

When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus
Everyone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
Oh!...
...snap!
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:37 pm
Oh!...
...snap!
That's dzogchungpa's line...
krodha
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by krodha »

Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pmEveryone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
Has it ever occurred to you that you may not know nearly as much as you think you do?

Sorry to be blunt but your view is a mess, and you would benefit from a qualified teacher and listening to what others have to say in this forum.
Kris
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Kris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:09 pm
Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pm
heart wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm

When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus
Everyone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
:rolling:
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climb-up
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by climb-up »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:25 pm
Simon E. wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:17 pm This is getting ridiculous. It's just trolling.
I was hoping it was just bull in china shop, but you may well be right. ;)
OMG, it's got to be! Right?
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
liuzg150181
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by liuzg150181 »

krodha wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:43 pm
Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pmEveryone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
Has it ever occurred to you that you may not know nearly as much as you think you do?

Sorry to be blunt but your view is a mess, and you would benefit from a qualified teacher and listening to what others have to say in this forum.
If she really knows how much she knows, then she wouldnt be posting all these all along.
Dunning-Kruger effect
DGA
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by DGA »

liuzg150181 wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:48 am
krodha wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:43 pm
Jyoti wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:17 pmEveryone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.
Has it ever occurred to you that you may not know nearly as much as you think you do?

Sorry to be blunt but your view is a mess, and you would benefit from a qualified teacher and listening to what others have to say in this forum.
If she really knows how much she knows, then she wouldnt be posting all these all along.
Dunning-Kruger effect
Thank you for saying what I was also thinking
ItsRaining
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by ItsRaining »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:24 pm
ItsRaining wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:16 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:45 am

No, actually these controversies apply to entire classes of sūtras, and we have not even begun to get into tantras.

The whole idea of "three turnings" is very sketchy to begin with, and a hermeneutic device Indian masters wholly ignored.
Divākara from the Nalanda reported that in India there were two masters at Nalanda the abbot of Nalanda and Xuanzang's teacher Śīlabhadra and Jnanaprabha. The first taught the Three Turnings with the Third Turning as Yogacara and most definite whereas the latter taught the Madhyamka as the definite teaching.

But the Huayan Patriarch Fazang Xianshou notes that the Prajna Sutras cannot be classified as only second turning and in the end places Yogacara on a level lower than Madhyamaka.
This is anecdotal.

When you examine the bstan 'gyur, you will discover that there is almost nothing mentioned about the three turnings. The passage in the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra about three turnings was ignore Asanga in his commentary on the sūtra. The other commentary, by Jn̄̄ānagarbha, also ignores the three turnings. It appears obvious then that this tiny section of the sūtra in question are regarded as being of little importance by Indian masters in India.

The notion of three turnings as a major device for interpreting sūtras was introduced to Tibet in the massive commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra by the Korean master་་Won-ch'uk. However, this is almost entirely ignored in Chinese Buddhism as well which seems to generally follow the Tientai school for dating and evaluating sūtras.

Madhyamikas would never accept this scheme since they regarded the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra a provisional sūtra from the get go, and their criteria for evaluating definitive vs. provisional sūtras comes from the Akṣayamtinirdeśasūtra.

But this is all massively off topic.
I found Śīlabhadra proposing the theory plausible as he is the teacher of Xuanzang (who in turn taught Won Chu'k) whose East Asian Yogacara school proposed the Three Turning teaching.

But I would agree that the Tiantai and Huayan evaluations are much better than the Three Turnings.
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climb-up
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:39 pm
climb-up wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:37 pm
Oh!...
...snap!
That's dzogchungpa's line...
:emb:
I'll have to work on my originality with my quips!
Last edited by climb-up on Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reibeam
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam »

Well, seeing that my OP which I thought was rather innocuous turn into this was quite amazing! :stirthepot:

Amazingly off topic but maybe not...we just witnessed a lot of suffering :tongue:

Thanks to those who chimed in on the actual question. :twothumbsup:

Your right Malcolm, a few seconds of Instant Presence isn't necessarily an effective form of pain management but its a sensation and some fuel for practice nonetheless.
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by DGA »

Reibeam wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:58 am
Your right Malcolm, a few seconds of Instant Presence isn't necessarily an effective form of pain management but its a sensation and some fuel for practice nonetheless.
Oh, right... the topic at hand. Of course.

I've tried to apply instant presence while getting some dental work done. And while passing a kidney stone in the restroom of a Costco warehouse. I can't say it changed the quality of the pain but I did notice that distractions were few. I don't know if that's helpful...
Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm »

ItsRaining wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:24 pm
ItsRaining wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:16 am

Divākara from the Nalanda reported that in India there were two masters at Nalanda the abbot of Nalanda and Xuanzang's teacher Śīlabhadra and Jnanaprabha. The first taught the Three Turnings with the Third Turning as Yogacara and most definite whereas the latter taught the Madhyamka as the definite teaching.

But the Huayan Patriarch Fazang Xianshou notes that the Prajna Sutras cannot be classified as only second turning and in the end places Yogacara on a level lower than Madhyamaka.
This is anecdotal.

When you examine the bstan 'gyur, you will discover that there is almost nothing mentioned about the three turnings. The passage in the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra about three turnings was ignore Asanga in his commentary on the sūtra. The other commentary, by Jn̄̄ānagarbha, also ignores the three turnings. It appears obvious then that this tiny section of the sūtra in question are regarded as being of little importance by Indian masters in India.

The notion of three turnings as a major device for interpreting sūtras was introduced to Tibet in the massive commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra by the Korean master་་Won-ch'uk. However, this is almost entirely ignored in Chinese Buddhism as well which seems to generally follow the Tientai school for dating and evaluating sūtras.

Madhyamikas would never accept this scheme since they regarded the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra a provisional sūtra from the get go, and their criteria for evaluating definitive vs. provisional sūtras comes from the Akṣayamtinirdeśasūtra.

But this is all massively off topic.
I found Śīlabhadra proposing the theory plausible as he is the teacher of Xuanzang (who in turn taught Won Chu'k) whose East Asian Yogacara school proposed the Three Turning teaching.

But I would agree that the Tiantai and Huayan evaluations are much better than the Three Turnings.
You’re missing the point. Indian masters who wrote commentaries on this text didn’t care about this tiny passage and it is evidently so since they ignore it completely.

Further, this is off topic.
TaTa
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by TaTa »

Something relevant to the topic: I remember a interview of fransisco varella a couple of weeks before he died and he was asked what was the most important thing in life and he started talking about tulku urgyen and how he show him the nature of mind. He talked about how even with a cancer, his stomatch cutted by surgery and tubes going in and out of his body he could still fall in rigpa and everything was ok in that moment.

It was a very beautifull interview but its not longer in youtube
muni
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by muni »

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Dear, I do not think the four reliances is rejecting a Master. Not to focus on the outer individual-personality-form is not the same as rejecting, perhaps its' to not feed dualistic perception (perceiver-perceived). But Guru is essential. Guru is Buddha - is awaken.
There is said if we perceive a human who is teaching us something, then we get teachings from a human. By Bodhisattva, it will be teaching from a Bodhisattva , or Buddha, it will be Awaken Nature teaching.

Then:
“Some of us really are looking for a master to follow. We think that someone out there can “fix” us and make our lives better. Others of us avoid teachers, often because of personal issues about authority figures. Or, we might think we are smart enough to “get” this by ourselves, and we don’t need anyone telling us what to believe.

Both of these extremes are pitfalls, and they are both rooted in the same self-other dichotomy, the same delusion.

Clinging to something or avoiding something both come from seeing oneself as separate from everything else. Liberation from this delusion is enlightenment.”

Again this is not rejecting the Guru, which is not just Nirmanakaya.
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti »

muni wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:00 am
In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Dear, I do not think the four reliances is rejecting a Master. Not to focus on the outer individual-personality-form is not the same as rejecting, perhaps its' to not feed dualistic perception (perceiver-perceived). But Guru is essential. Guru is Buddha - is awaken.
There is said if we perceive a human who is teaching us something, then we get teachings from a human. By Bodhisattva, it will be teaching from a Bodhisattva , or Buddha, it will be Awaken Nature teaching.

Then:
“Some of us really are looking for a master to follow. We think that someone out there can “fix” us and make our lives better. Others of us avoid teachers, often because of personal issues about authority figures. Or, we might think we are smart enough to “get” this by ourselves, and we don’t need anyone telling us what to believe.

Both of these extremes are pitfalls, and they are both rooted in the same self-other dichotomy, the same delusion.

Clinging to something or avoiding something both come from seeing oneself as separate from everything else. Liberation from this delusion is enlightenment.”

Again this is not rejecting the Guru, which is not just Nirmanakaya.
This will be my last post after clearing this up once and for all.

I did not object to the need of teacher for person still ignorant of the teaching. My stand point is that in order discuss the definitive meaning sutras, the person must already passed the student-teacher pace, where they have firmly established themself the view, path and fruition of the teaching. At that stage, the need for a teacher automatically show sign of immaturity and uncertainty in his mastery of the teaching, in which case he/she should just admit he/she is not ready to discuss the definitive teaching on his own accord, but still needing the guidance of the teacher.

How do everyone here suppose I am to discuss the definitive teaching, if everyone insist they must bring their teacher with them, and I with my own. It is our selves that involved in the discussion, not our teachers. If anyone is incapable to be independent with regard to the teaching, then admit it to be his/her own short-coming, rather than trying to impose the same status of weakness onto another person.

I have been erudite in the dharma since 25 years ago to be exact, in 2001 I already active in newsgroup discussion, I considered that as the testing ground for my competence in dharma, it is not easy, myself as a young lady at that time, to stand firm against various opponents from different tradition of buddhism as well as heretics, Malcolm was there too under the name 'namdro', but later he disappeared from newsgroup and hiding himself in the safe zone of moderated forums, being protected by like-minded followers, that is the difference between myself and him, I grow by that haste environment with no help but myself and the knowledge of the dharma alone. I don't need a teacher, because I have forced to grow under that environment to be independent, it is proven by experience that I can handle any difficult buddhist discussion, it is only where I receive no more challenge but only praises and compliments that I decided to leave the newsgroup in 2011. As in 2012, I find no capable opponent here in this forum capable of handling the definitive discussion with me (in the spirit of academic discussion and the four reliances). If anyone think he is capable, then you know where to find me.

Virgo, hope to see you in good shape, if I ever return again.
Simon E.
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. »

Don't feed the troll, would be my response.....Really folks, just leave it.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Simon E. »

muni wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:00 am
In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.
Dear, I do not think the four reliances is rejecting a Master. Not to focus on the outer individual-personality-form is not the same as rejecting, perhaps its' to not feed dualistic perception (perceiver-perceived). But Guru is essential. Guru is Buddha - is awaken.
There is said if we perceive a human who is teaching us something, then we get teachings from a human. By Bodhisattva, it will be teaching from a Bodhisattva , or Buddha, it will be Awaken Nature teaching.

Then:
“Some of us really are looking for a master to follow. We think that someone out there can “fix” us and make our lives better. Others of us avoid teachers, often because of personal issues about authority figures. Or, we might think we are smart enough to “get” this by ourselves, and we don’t need anyone telling us what to believe.

Both of these extremes are pitfalls, and they are both rooted in the same self-other dichotomy, the same delusion.

Clinging to something or avoiding something both come from seeing oneself as separate from everything else. Liberation from this delusion is enlightenment.”

Again this is not rejecting the Guru, which is not just Nirmanakaya.
This is total gibberish and has no more place in a Dzogchen thread than the trolling posts it is in response to.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
PeterC
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by PeterC »

Jyoti wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm
I have been erudite in the dharma since 25 years ago to be exact, in 2001 I already active in newsgroup discussion, I considered that as the testing ground for my competence in dharma, it is not easy, myself as a young lady at that time, to stand firm against various opponents from different tradition of buddhism as well as heretics, Malcolm was there too under the name 'namdro', but later he disappeared from newsgroup and hiding himself in the safe zone of moderated forums, being protected by like-minded followers, that is the difference between myself and him, I grow by that haste environment with no help but myself and the knowledge of the dharma alone. I don't need a teacher, because I have forced to grow under that environment to be independent, it is proven by experience that I can handle any difficult buddhist discussion, it is only where I receive no more challenge but only praises and compliments that I decided to leave the newsgroup in 2011. As in 2012, I find no capable opponent here in this forum capable of handling the definitive discussion with me (in the spirit of academic discussion and the four reliances). If anyone think he is capable, then you know where to find me.

Virgo, hope to see you in good shape, if I ever return again.
The mic drop works better when you don’t write a long self-justification after it
Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm »

Jyoti wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm Malcolm was there too under the name 'namdro', but later he disappeared from newsgroup and hiding himself in the safe zone of moderated forums, being protected by like-minded followers
No, I simply grew tired of the unrelenting spam that came to dominate the alt.religion.buddhism.* newsgroups.
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