Instant Presence and Physical Pain
- Reibeam
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Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?
My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".
You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.
Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".
You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.
Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Presence is not a mean to escape from physical pain. Whatever mental/emotional association of the pain will still arise, these will not change due to presence.
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
So the Buddha was lying when he said that liberation is the end of suffering?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
- Reibeam
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:21 am
- Location: On the Western continent In the mountains close to space
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
The question was not posed as a means to "escape" pain at all and your right it will still arise. I am referring more to using an intense experience of sensation to be in instant presence with. In the state of contemplation the pain still arises but the suffering stops.
I was interested in how others may have related to similar experiences of sensation like this.
- Reibeam
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- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:21 am
- Location: On the Western continent In the mountains close to space
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
- KathyLauren
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
If your body is experiencing an injury, you will experience pain. Wishing that the pain would stop is suffering. Experiencing pain with presence would include noting the pain, recognizing and taking whatever action is necessary to preserve health and life (because a bodhisattva has vowed to make the best use of this precious human birth to help all sentient beings), and then letting it be.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
If your body is experiencing an injury, you will experience pain. Wishing that the pain would stop is suffering. Experiencing pain with presence would include noting the pain, recognizing and taking whatever action is necessary to preserve health and life (because a bodhisattva has vowed to make the best use of this precious human birth to help all sentient beings), and then letting it be.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
I think the OP was asked in the context of dzogchen state. Instant presence refers to that.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
If your body is experiencing an injury, you will experience pain. Wishing that the pain would stop is suffering. Experiencing pain with presence would include noting the pain, recognizing and taking whatever action is necessary to preserve health and life (because a bodhisattva has vowed to make the best use of this precious human birth to help all sentient beings), and then letting it be.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Hi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
As a matter of fact I passed a kidney stone not long agoReibeam wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?
My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".
You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.
Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
Pain there certainly was.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Pain killers won’t send you into hell.Reibeam wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?
My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".
You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.
Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Kidney stones are hell.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:22 pmPain killers won’t send you into hell.Reibeam wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?
My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".
You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.
Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen
- KathyLauren
- Posts: 967
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
- Location: East Coast of Canada
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
I have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.heart wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pmHi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
/magnus
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
It is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pmI have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.heart wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pmHi Kathy, you realise that this is a quote from one of the books by Haruki Murakami, it has nothing particular to do with Buddhism.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm It is important not to confuse pain with suffering. ("Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.")
/magnus
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Suffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.
KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
It does not need to be stop, because suffering is of the imaginary nature which is false. Just view physical pain as the combination of the dependent arising nature and the absolute nature. The unity of the two truths, by realizing this is the arriving at the cessation of 'suffering'.Reibeam wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:08 pmThe question was not posed as a means to "escape" pain at all and your right it will still arise. I am referring more to using an intense experience of sensation to be in instant presence with. In the state of contemplation the pain still arises but the suffering stops.
I was interested in how others may have related to similar experiences of sensation like this.
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
I am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.Jyoti wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pmSuffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.
KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning. Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.heart wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pmI am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.Jyoti wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pmSuffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.
KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
/magnus
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
I am afraid I don't agree with your equalising jnana and intelligence, intelligence is mind and jnana is beyond the mind. Pain and suffering is also within the realms of mind.Jyoti wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pmIn the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning. Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.heart wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pmI am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.Jyoti wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:53 pm
Suffering in buddhist context is not physical pain which is temporary, but the unwholesomeness of ignorance which result in endless cycle of rebirth in samsara. However, in the teaching of definitive meaning such as dzogchen and the middle path of buddhism, the concept of suffering does not establish, because it is of the imaginary nature, whereas the physical pain itself in term of pure sensation is the absolute nature which is true, the recognition of this nature is the knowledge of thusness.
KathyLauren is right, physical pain is not equal to suffering. The appearance of the physical pain is the dependent arising nature, which in dzogchen refer to as the mere appearance of conventional truth. It is the imaginary nature that support the concept of suffering, and this nature is not a truth.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?Jyoti wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pmIn the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning.
Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:
Ignorance and knowledge are respectively suffering and the absence of suffering.
Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
not his, he just mentioned he heard it from some other marathon runnerheart wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:29 pmIt is Haruki Murakami, however it is used everywhere among western buddhist. But pain is actually suffering and it is connected with our body and our body is caused by our karma.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pmI have heard the quote from many sources, and I suspect it is apocryphal. I know that it has nothing explicitly to do with Buddhism. But it is a propos when talking about the difference between pain and suffering, especially if the two are being conflated.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
/magnus