Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Pero
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:35 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:30 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:24 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:14 pm


I am pretty sure suffering is a sensation. It is true, as long as one has a physical body one can experience physical pain and suffering. Also without a physical body one can experience mental pain and mental suffering. Pain and suffering are connected.

/magnus
I meant more like mental suffering. That is not a sensation to me, but perhaps I do not understand the word sensation correctly.
How about mental pain? Is it a sensation?

/magnus
What would mental pain be?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:30 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:20 pm



Which book, what page?
In Mandarava Tsalung, page 60. Talking about someone who is always in instant presence.
Ok, this is a different use of the word "rig pa" -- this is remaining in a moment by moment state of unfabricated consciousness 24/7/365, i.e., a buddha.

When anyone is such a state, while in that state, they are free of the ripening of karma.
Are there two different definitions of rigpa? Or is the only difference between a buddha and someone who has a much lower capacity that the person of lower capacity will become distracted when the pain starts?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:30 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:25 pm


In Mandarava Tsalung, page 60. Talking about someone who is always in instant presence.
Ok, this is a different use of the word "rig pa" -- this is remaining in a moment by moment state of unfabricated consciousness 24/7/365, i.e., a buddha.

When anyone is such a state, while in that state, they are free of the ripening of karma.
Are there two different definitions of rigpa? Or is the only difference between a buddha and someone who has a much lower capacity that the person of lower capacity will become distracted when the pain starts?
Yes, rig pa is used in many different ways in Dzogchen texts. In this case, rig pa refers one's continuum of unmodified consciousness that is momentary. Hence "instant presence." In this case rig pa is referring to the knower, rather than a kind of knowledge as it is used in other contexts.

It basically means that when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:31 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:12 pm


All painful sensations of the body are the ripening of past negative karma. All pleasant sensations of the mind are the ripening of past positive karma. Even what we consider negative mental sensations are actually the ripening of negative karma in the body, and vice versa for pleasant sensations of the body — they are actually the ripening of positive karma in the mind.
I'm not sure I'm getting you. What you are saying is that karma ripens both in the body and mind?

All painful sensations are the ripening of negative karma in the body. All pleasant sensations are the ripening of positive karma in the mind.
Ok I understand that but think I'm getting lost with the meaning of the word "sensation". Are feelings and sensations the same? Because I thought pain is a sensation, sadness a feeling (and would fall under mental suffering). And in context of this discussion do not see why a practitioner on the path could not experience both regardless of it being a sensation or feeling or something else. Am I completely wrong in this? :shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:31 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:21 pm

I'm not sure I'm getting you. What you are saying is that karma ripens both in the body and mind?

All painful sensations are the ripening of negative karma in the body. All pleasant sensations are the ripening of positive karma in the mind.
Ok I understand that but think I'm getting lost with the meaning of the word "sensation". Are feelings and sensations the same? Because I thought pain is a sensation, sadness a feeling (and would fall under mental suffering). And in context of this discussion do not see why a practitioner on the path could not experience both regardless of it being a sensation or feeling or something else. Am I completely wrong in this? :shrug:
There are five sensations and only five: pain and pleasure for the body; sadness and happiness for the mind, and indifference for both.

The answers to so many of these questions are found in Abhidharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 617
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by KathyLauren » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:49 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:17 pm
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:11 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:02 pm
Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus
Pain is just a necessary physical sensation. Suffering in the case of pain is (or is caused by) the aversion to pain. It is perfectly possible, though difficult without practice, to experience pain without the aversion. No aversion, no suffering. This is the Second Noble Truth.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I think you are conflating marathon with Buddhism, but whatever ever you want to believe is fine with me.

/magnus
Who is talking about marathon? Not me. Clearly you are making a concerted effort to avoid understanding me. Fine.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Pero
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:31 pm



All painful sensations are the ripening of negative karma in the body. All pleasant sensations are the ripening of positive karma in the mind.
Ok I understand that but think I'm getting lost with the meaning of the word "sensation". Are feelings and sensations the same? Because I thought pain is a sensation, sadness a feeling (and would fall under mental suffering). And in context of this discussion do not see why a practitioner on the path could not experience both regardless of it being a sensation or feeling or something else. Am I completely wrong in this? :shrug:
There are five sensations and only five: pain and pleasure for the body; sadness and happiness for the mind, and indifference for both.
I see.
The answers to so many of these questions are found in Abhidharma.
I was wondering if you were going to say that (again). :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:30 pm


Ok, this is a different use of the word "rig pa" -- this is remaining in a moment by moment state of unfabricated consciousness 24/7/365, i.e., a buddha.

When anyone is such a state, while in that state, they are free of the ripening of karma.
Are there two different definitions of rigpa? Or is the only difference between a buddha and someone who has a much lower capacity that the person of lower capacity will become distracted when the pain starts?
Yes, rig pa is used in many different ways in Dzogchen texts. In this case, rig pa refers one's continuum of unmodified consciousness that is momentary. Hence "instant presence." In this case rig pa is referring to the knower, rather than a kind of knowledge as it is used in other contexts.

It basically means that when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:35 pm


Are there two different definitions of rigpa? Or is the only difference between a buddha and someone who has a much lower capacity that the person of lower capacity will become distracted when the pain starts?
Yes, rig pa is used in many different ways in Dzogchen texts. In this case, rig pa refers one's continuum of unmodified consciousness that is momentary. Hence "instant presence." In this case rig pa is referring to the knower, rather than a kind of knowledge as it is used in other contexts.

It basically means that when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?
[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 pm


Yes, rig pa is used in many different ways in Dzogchen texts. In this case, rig pa refers one's continuum of unmodified consciousness that is momentary. Hence "instant presence." In this case rig pa is referring to the knower, rather than a kind of knowledge as it is used in other contexts.

It basically means that when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?
[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
I thought you were talking about the case of someone who is a buddha. In my first post where I said that pain cannot be felt you seemed to disagree. Or did you mean that it can be felt by someone who has the knowledge but is not necessarily in the state every moment?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 pm


But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?
[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
I thought you were talking about the case of someone who is a buddha. In my first post where I said that pain cannot be felt you seemed to disagree. Or did you mean that it can be felt by someone who has the knowledge but is not necessarily in the state every moment?
Correct, physical pain can be felt by someone who has knowledge of the basis, but who is not residing in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

Physical pain cannot be felt by someone who is residing in the dhyānas or who is in a state of perfect śamatha. In this case, the only difference between a perfect śamatha and "instant presence" is whether that person has Dzogchen view or not. Dzogchen is many wonderful things, but it does not eliminate the framework of how karma functions, how mental factors function, and how śamatha functions and so on. Some people (not you) seem to think that Dzogchen is a "get out of Buddhism free" card. It isn't.

The reason I referenced ChNN's medical issues last year is that some people think that Rinpoche is in instant presence 24/7/365. He isn't, by his own admission.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm


[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
I thought you were talking about the case of someone who is a buddha. In my first post where I said that pain cannot be felt you seemed to disagree. Or did you mean that it can be felt by someone who has the knowledge but is not necessarily in the state every moment?
Correct, physical pain can be felt by someone who has knowledge of the basis, but who is not residing in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

Physical pain cannot be felt by someone who is residing in the dhyānas or who is in a state of perfect śamatha. In this case, the only difference between a perfect śamatha and "instant presence" is whether that person has Dzogchen view or not. Dzogchen is many wonderful things, but it does not eliminate the framework of how karma functions, how mental factors function, and how śamatha functions and so on. Some people (not you) seem to think that Dzogchen is a "get out of Buddhism free" card. It isn't.

The reason I referenced ChNN's medical issues last year is that some people think that Rinpoche is in instant presence 24/7/365. He isn't, by his own admission.
So far I always thought of rigpa as referring only to being in the state, not also as a word for having the knowledge, though I must have seen it being used this way before. Thank you.

User avatar
Reibeam
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:21 am
Location: On the Western continent In the mountains close to space

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm


[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
I thought you were talking about the case of someone who is a buddha. In my first post where I said that pain cannot be felt you seemed to disagree. Or did you mean that it can be felt by someone who has the knowledge but is not necessarily in the state every moment?
Correct, physical pain can be felt by someone who has knowledge of the basis, but who is not residing in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

Physical pain cannot be felt by someone who is residing in the dhyānas or who is in a state of perfect śamatha. In this case, the only difference between a perfect śamatha and "instant presence" is whether that person has Dzogchen view or not. Dzogchen is many wonderful things, but it does not eliminate the framework of how karma functions, how mental factors function, and how śamatha functions and so on. Some people (not you) seem to think that Dzogchen is a "get out of Buddhism free" card. It isn't.

The reason I referenced ChNN's medical issues last year is that some people think that Rinpoche is in instant presence 24/7/365. He isn't, by his own admission.
Thanks everyone for there replies.

So Malcolm, I guess the point you make about ChNN is the root of my question.

If one is in instant presence in that moment then pain has no cause for arising thus no pain is felt?

If pain or pleasure is karma ripening and being in instant presence is a supreme form of purification is the state of instant presence purifying the ripening karma before the sensation is experienced?

User avatar
Jyoti
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:47 am

heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:31 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm


I am sure it is true in your own version of Buddhism, but I don't think you can find the Buddha quoting Haruki Murakami anywhere. The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.

/magnus
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning. Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
I am afraid I don't agree with your equalising jnana and intelligence, intelligence is mind and jnana is beyond the mind. Pain and suffering is also within the realms of mind.

/magnus
Jnana is a function of mind, hence associated with 'intelligence' is the right translation, only the wisdom of the base is beyond mind because it is beyond function. Do not confuse jnana (intelligence) with prajna (wisdom).

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Aryjna » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:50 am

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:47 am
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:31 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm


In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning. Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
I am afraid I don't agree with your equalising jnana and intelligence, intelligence is mind and jnana is beyond the mind. Pain and suffering is also within the realms of mind.

/magnus
Jnana is a function of mind, hence associated with 'intelligence' is the right translation, only the wisdom of the base is beyond mind because it is beyond function. Do not confuse jnana (intelligence) with prajna (wisdom).
This is not correct according to other sources http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/ye_shes

User avatar
Jyoti
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:03 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:56 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm
The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning.

Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:

Ignorance and knowledge are respectively suffering and the absence of suffering.
The teaching of definitive meaning as expounded in the third turning is aimed at the position of the fourth noble truth, whereas all the nondefinitive scriptures (of the first and middle turning) discusses only the three noble truths, though they know the words of the fourth noble truth, they don't know the meaning.

Refering to my post in 2011 in talk.religion.buddhism:

Due to lack of the four non-obstructions, there is obstruction to the law, meaning, words and speech. The lack of four non-obstructions is the four inversions. The four inversions are due to the practice of the three purities (renunciation of self, desire/pleasure, impurities of the 2 vehicles)

T12n0376_p0862a18(11)║「此三種修於我法中亦無實義,間間苦修性昇降故,苦樂 想顛倒,"These three practices do not have real meaning in my teaching, due to continue practice of renunciation, the nature arises and fall, the thought of suffering and pleasure become inverted."

The three purities and their corresponding inversions:

T12n0376_p0862a19(01)║樂苦想顛倒,無常常想顛倒,常無常想顛倒,
"The thought of pleasure and pain is inverted, the thought of impermanence and permanence is inverted, the thought of permanence and impermanence is inverted,
T12n0376_p0862a20(01)║非我我想顛倒,我非我想顛倒,不淨淨想顛倒,
"The thought of non-self and self is inverted, the thought of self and non-self is inverted, the thought of impurities and purities is inverted,
T12n0376_p0862a21(00)║淨不淨想顛倒,如是四顛倒想者不識平等,
"The thought of purities and impurities is inverted, such is the four inversion which does not recognize the equanimity."

The three practice of purities have no real meaning, meaning is not gained, the gained is not the meaning. Thus, the gained is obstructed, the not gained is non-obstructed.

The position of mahayana is to accept the words of the 11 classes of sutras (include the 2 vehicles) which preached the gained, but neutralize words of these scriptures with the meaning that is not gained as preached in the vaipulya class of mahayana scriptures (方等大乘經典).

Further:

The sutra passage about the suffering is of the three dharma seal:

The practice of the three purities (renunciation of self, desire/pleasure, impurities of the 2 vehicles). The three poisons, desire, aversion and delusion support each other, the three dharma seal, no-self, suffering, and impermanence support each other. The three poisons, the three dharma seals and the four truths relate to each other. The five senses and the thoughts are considered as impured, thus there is antidote like visualization of corpse, thinking of impermanence of phenomena.

All these elements belong to the 25 gains, the gained has no meaning, and so it lead to obstruction due to inversions.

User avatar
Jyoti
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:48 am

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:50 am
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:47 am
heart wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:31 pm


I am afraid I don't agree with your equalising jnana and intelligence, intelligence is mind and jnana is beyond the mind. Pain and suffering is also within the realms of mind.

/magnus
Jnana is a function of mind, hence associated with 'intelligence' is the right translation, only the wisdom of the base is beyond mind because it is beyond function. Do not confuse jnana (intelligence) with prajna (wisdom).
This is not correct according to other sources http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/ye_shes
This site's translation practically make both jnana and prajna having the same meaning, this will make the chinese definitive scriptures impossible to not be confuse when translated. This is the mistake which I have for a long time tried to avoid (for myself) and correct (for others). I read the definitive chinese sutras literally without needing translation and read in meaning rather than just words, so I know my choice of translation.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:34 am

I quoted a text which is classified as third turning, but you replied with non sequiturs
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:03 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:56 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm


In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning.

Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.
So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:

Ignorance and knowledge are respectively suffering and the absence of suffering.
The teaching of definitive meaning as expounded in the third turning is aimed at the position of the fourth noble truth, whereas all the nondefinitive scriptures (of the first and middle turning) discusses only the three noble truths, though they know the words of the fourth noble truth, they don't know the meaning.

Refering to my post in 2011 in talk.religion.buddhism:

Due to lack of the four non-obstructions, there is obstruction to the law, meaning, words and speech. The lack of four non-obstructions is the four inversions. The four inversions are due to the practice of the three purities (renunciation of self, desire/pleasure, impurities of the 2 vehicles)

T12n0376_p0862a18(11)║「此三種修於我法中亦無實義,間間苦修性昇降故,苦樂 想顛倒,"These three practices do not have real meaning in my teaching, due to continue practice of renunciation, the nature arises and fall, the thought of suffering and pleasure become inverted."

The three purities and their corresponding inversions:

T12n0376_p0862a19(01)║樂苦想顛倒,無常常想顛倒,常無常想顛倒,
"The thought of pleasure and pain is inverted, the thought of impermanence and permanence is inverted, the thought of permanence and impermanence is inverted,
T12n0376_p0862a20(01)║非我我想顛倒,我非我想顛倒,不淨淨想顛倒,
"The thought of non-self and self is inverted, the thought of self and non-self is inverted, the thought of impurities and purities is inverted,
T12n0376_p0862a21(00)║淨不淨想顛倒,如是四顛倒想者不識平等,
"The thought of purities and impurities is inverted, such is the four inversion which does not recognize the equanimity."

The three practice of purities have no real meaning, meaning is not gained, the gained is not the meaning. Thus, the gained is obstructed, the not gained is non-obstructed.

The position of mahayana is to accept the words of the 11 classes of sutras (include the 2 vehicles) which preached the gained, but neutralize words of these scriptures with the meaning that is not gained as preached in the vaipulya class of mahayana scriptures (方等大乘經典).

Further:

The sutra passage about the suffering is of the three dharma seal:

The practice of the three purities (renunciation of self, desire/pleasure, impurities of the 2 vehicles). The three poisons, desire, aversion and delusion support each other, the three dharma seal, no-self, suffering, and impermanence support each other. The three poisons, the three dharma seals and the four truths relate to each other. The five senses and the thoughts are considered as impured, thus there is antidote like visualization of corpse, thinking of impermanence of phenomena.

All these elements belong to the 25 gains, the gained has no meaning, and so it lead to obstruction due to inversions.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Jyoti
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:13 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:34 am
I quoted a text which is classified as third turning, but you replied with non sequiturs

So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:
This is not a definitive sutra since it discusses sentient beings and samsara. My point of the citation is just to answer your two questions. Your first question is rooted in the basis of nondefinitive teaching, that's why there is no direct answer that is definitive to that, but only indirect answer that is definitive, that is, if you can read the meaning.
Last edited by Jyoti on Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

krodha
Posts: 2412
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:57 am

You'd think after a multi-year hiatus we would get a different Jyoti.

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Adamantine, Dorje Shedrub, Hansei, Heruka85, Kunzang Tobgyal, Leif, Mantrik, meepits and 113 guests