Instant Presence and Physical Pain

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Pero
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:34 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm


[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
I have heard ChNN say, and more than once, that when you are resting in rigpa the pain does not disappear tout court. It may lessen (he actually used the modal verb here) or be experienced differently.
When one is in perfect śamatha, one will not feel pain. Śamatha in fact was the historical Buddha's ibuprofen. This is mentioned in more than one sutta.
I think the issue is you saying samatha = rigpa as far as experience of pain goes. I thought I heard Rinpoche the same as THO but became unsure if I understood correctly due to this discussion. I think I heard Tsoknyi Rinpoche say things to that effect as well. On one hand I guess it could sort of make sense if mind is not active but on the other hand it would mean experience is blocked which makes no sense.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:34 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm


[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.
I have heard ChNN say, and more than once, that when you are resting in rigpa the pain does not disappear tout court. It may lessen (he actually used the modal verb here) or be experienced differently.
When one is in perfect śamatha, one will not feel pain. Śamatha in fact was the historical Buddha's ibuprofen. This is mentioned in more than one sutta.
Well, Rinpoche disagrees, assuming resting in rigpa entails being in perfect śamatha.
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:45 pm
I think the issue is you saying samatha = rigpa as far as experience of pain goes. I thought I heard Rinpoche the same as THO but became unsure if I understood correctly due to this discussion. I think I heard Tsoknyi Rinpoche say things to that effect as well. On one hand I guess it could sort of make sense if mind is not active but on the other hand it would mean experience is blocked which makes no sense.
TR writes about it in one of his early unrestricted books, IIRC. I have heard it from James Low and TWR as well. Not to mention just about every single SMS instructor I have come across.

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, As It Is II:
Actually, once you have recognized this genuine state of wakefulness, samsara is no longer the problem it usually is. In the normal state of thinking, we experience joy, we experience sorrow - there are all these thoughts, all our worries and plans. But in the very moment of recognizing this thoughtfree wakefulness, there is no problem at all. At that moment, samsara is quite delightful, with a sense of great equality, expansive and wide open. You may experience happiness, but if you recognize the essence, you don't get too overjoyed and caught up in that. You may experience pain, but if you recognize your essence, you don't get totally depressed and caught up in that. That is why it is called the great equality. (133)
And:
There is a certain place in Tibet where skeletons would start to dance. Male and female skeletons would dance together before [TUR's father] and behind him. They performed elaborate folk dances, trying to scare him. He later said that the dancing was not such a big deal to cope with - he simply continued his practice. The worst were the skin demons, big sheets of human skin that would slowly move towards him in grotesque shapes. When they got very close he was struck with an intense pain in his gut. Once again, he simply remained in the state of rigpa and the human skins shrank in size and finally vanished. (223)
Honestly, these discussions are silly. One thing they can certainly result in is a massive confusion -- plus an equally massive amount of unrealistic expectations for newcomers to Dzogchen.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Honestly, these discussions are silly. One thing they can certainly result in is a massive confusion -- plus an equally massive amount of unrealistic expectations for newcomers to Dzogchen.


What do you mean by this exactly? I think its a valid thing to discuss and its something anyone can relate to. Sure, all questions can be directed to one's teacher but some of our teachers encourage us to discuss these things with each other to help clarify understanding.

I think pain is an interesting topic to examine from the standpoint of Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. I was particularly interested in people's experience in how pain concretely relates with Instant Presence as taught in Dzogchen as well how it should be understood from the View.



So my original post was about the validity of this kind experience and an inquiry into other's experiences.
Last edited by Reibeam on Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:21 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:26 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:13 am
heart wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:03 am


I am sorry if I offend you, but this distinction is not done in Buddhism, no matter where the quote is from. Like Malcolm said, pain is the suffering of suffering. You can read more about it here: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _suffering

/magnus
A saying is true when it is true, it does not matter where it come from. Even with your source, the definition 'suffering' is of non-definitive dharma.
You seem to have truth on your side Jyoti. :smile:

/magnus
My side is none other than what is in the scriptures.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:34 pm

Reibeam wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm
Honestly, these discussions are silly. One thing they can certainly result in is a massive confusion -- plus an equally massive amount of unrealistic expectations for newcomers to Dzogchen.


What do you mean by this exactly? I think its a valid thing to discuss and its something anyone can relate to. Sure, all questions can be directed to one's teacher but some of our teachers encourage us to discuss these things with each other to help clarify understanding.
...
So my original post was about the validity of this kind experience and an inquiry into other's experiences.
Well one's practice experiences should generally not really be up for public discussion. Sometimes discussion can help, other times it can just confuse.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Reibeam
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Reibeam » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:49 pm

Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:34 pm
Reibeam wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm
Honestly, these discussions are silly. One thing they can certainly result in is a massive confusion -- plus an equally massive amount of unrealistic expectations for newcomers to Dzogchen.


What do you mean by this exactly? I think its a valid thing to discuss and its something anyone can relate to. Sure, all questions can be directed to one's teacher but some of our teachers encourage us to discuss these things with each other to help clarify understanding.
...
So my original post was about the validity of this kind experience and an inquiry into other's experiences.
Well one's practice experiences should generally not really be up for public discussion. Sometimes discussion can help, other times it can just confuse.

Good point! Thanks! Experiences removed. Time wasting halted! :toilet:

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:34 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:44 am


I have heard ChNN say, and more than once, that when you are resting in rigpa the pain does not disappear tout court. It may lessen (he actually used the modal verb here) or be experienced differently.
When one is in perfect śamatha, one will not feel pain. Śamatha in fact was the historical Buddha's ibuprofen. This is mentioned in more than one sutta.
Well, Rinpoche disagrees, assuming resting in rigpa entails being in perfect śamatha.
What do you think "resting in rigpa" means? Let's define our terms here.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by heart » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:21 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:26 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:13 am


A saying is true when it is true, it does not matter where it come from. Even with your source, the definition 'suffering' is of non-definitive dharma.
You seem to have truth on your side Jyoti. :smile:

/magnus
My side is none other than what is in the scriptures.
So we have something common then? :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:34 pm


When one is in perfect śamatha, one will not feel pain. Śamatha in fact was the historical Buddha's ibuprofen. This is mentioned in more than one sutta.
Well, Rinpoche disagrees, assuming resting in rigpa entails being in perfect śamatha.
What do you think "resting in rigpa" means? Let's define our terms here.
Exactly what Rinpoche means when he says "being in the natural state," "being in the state of Guru Yoga," "being in your primordial state," "being in instant presence," etc.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:29 pm


Well, Rinpoche disagrees, assuming resting in rigpa entails being in perfect śamatha.
What do you think "resting in rigpa" means? Let's define our terms here.
Exactly what Rinpoche means when he says "being in the natural state," "being in the state of Guru Yoga," "being in your primordial state," "being in instant presence," etc.
This is too vague. And you are not telling me what YOU think these phrases mean. For example, are these mental states or not? Are they samadhis or not? If they are samadhis, then what kind of one pointedness do they represent? As far as I can see, these slogans don't tell us anything really. Do you experience pain differently when you are doing guru yoga? How? If someone experiences normal pain when they are doing guru yoga are they failures? etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Jyoti
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:49 am

heart wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:43 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:21 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:26 pm


You seem to have truth on your side Jyoti. :smile:

/magnus
My side is none other than what is in the scriptures.
So we have something common then? :smile:

/magnus
If you also uphold the four reliances, then yes.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:48 am

To conclude:

The term 'suffering' is a provisional devise of buddhism, it is based on provisional dharma such as the three dharma seals, and to facilitate the words of the first two noble truths. The definitive teaching of the mahayana directly arrived at the meaning (or position) of the third noble truth (not the fourth), which is the state of the cessation of suffering, thus the term 'suffering' does not exist (nor necessary) in the definitive teaching of mahayana.

A non-buddhist example of why 'suffering' is false in relation to physical pain, everyone in love knows that keeping the image of the love ones in mind will eradicate all physical pain, that pain would not be considered a form of suffering if it is something one do it for love ones, one feel the pain but one is satisfied (happy), and want more, because when it is due to the opportunity to express love, that is far more valueble than the result of the freedom from that physical pain, and that mental prospect is enough make the physical pain insignificance.

In buddhism, the intelligence/jnana simply see through physical pain as equal as physical pressure (bliss) in term of essence, by the focus (samadhi) of that is the intellect/jnana of nondifferentiation. This is a state that is far more stable and powerful than the worldly mental condition stated above that does not view pain as suffering.

Further related citation of my post in 2011 in talk.religion.buddhism:

>>> The Buddha said life is full of suffering. Is he trustworthy?
>>>
>>>
>> He fully distinguished the gained (suffering of samsara, no-self,
>> impermanence) and the no-gained (bliss of nirvana, buddha-nature and
>> permanence), without inverting them (like the confused followers of the
>> 2 vehicles), thus he is non-obstructed in trustworthiness.
>
>
> Is that really what the Buddha said?
> If so, where and when?
> If not, who said that?
>

From 《佛說大般泥洹經》 by the Buddha himself:

T12n0376_p0862a13(10)║如是眾生愚癡顛倒計我計常計樂計淨,然彼佛者是我 義,"Such that the sentient being's delusion inversely speculates the the self, [inversely] speculates the permanence, [inversely] speculates the bliss, and [inversely] speculates the purity, however the Buddha is the meaning of the self"
T12n0376_p0862a14(04)║法身是常義,泥洹是樂義,假名諸法是淨義。
"The body of law (dharmakaya) is the meaning of the permanence, nirvana is the meaning of bliss, deceptively termed the various phenomena is the meaning of purity"
T12n0376_p0862a15(03)║汝等比丘莫眩惑想,
"You bhikkus should not be thinking in confusion"
T12n0376_p0862a16(12)║而言我於一切法修無常苦空不淨想也。」 
"and say that 'I practice the thought of impermanence, suffering, emptiness and impurities toward all phenomenas'."

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:27 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:13 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:34 am
I quoted a text which is classified as third turning, but you replied with non sequiturs

So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:
This is not a definitive sutra since it discusses sentient beings and samsara. My point of the citation is just to answer your two questions. Your first question is rooted in the basis of nondefinitive teaching, that's why there is no direct answer that is definitive to that, but only indirect answer that is definitive, that is, if you can read the meaning.
All sūtras refer to sentient beings and samsara; therefore, by your logic there are no definitive sūtras at all.
In the definitive sutras, these words only appeared because of having to explain that these are only the words of dharma, not the meaning of dharma, for example, the meaning of the words 'sentient being' is buddha, and the meaning of the word 'samsara' is nirvana, and vice versa. So when these words appeared in the sutras, one looked at the context related to it, if these words are using for explanation of the meaning, then it is a definitive sutra, but if these words lead to a context that support a further proliferation of words and are not of the meaning (definitive), then it is not a definitive sutras.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:41 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:16 am
The tripitaka is very systematic and strict on what is definitive and what is not. The above criterias are fixed (not subject to doubt) and there are more.
No, actually it isn't —— and it is for this reason that there are disputation and multiple opinions about what is provisional and what is definitive.
Usually it is only related to a certain controversial sutras, we just have to read into the meaning of these sutras, that is all that is needed to determine whether the sutra is of definitive sutra of the third turning, or the sutras of the middle turning that required additional interpretation. One who is experience in the reading of sutras can easily tell the differences, since the definitive sutras of the third turning share a similar tone and meaning, which is different from those of the middle turning.
Last edited by Jyoti on Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:43 am

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:48 am

thus the term 'suffering' does not exist (nor necessary) in the definitive teaching of mahayana.
Making up the Dharma as you go along, huh? Can you find me even one master in any tradition who maintains this point of view you are proffering?
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:45 am

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:41 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:16 am
The tripitaka is very systematic and strict on what is definitive and what is not. The above criterias are fixed (not subject to doubt) and there are more.
No, actually it isn't —— and it is for this reason that there are disputation and multiple opinions about what is provisional and what is definitive.
Usually it is only related to a certain controversial sutras, we just have to read into the meaning of this sutras, that is all.
No, actually these controversies apply to entire classes of sūtras, and we have not even begun to get into tantras.

The whole idea of "three turnings" is very sketchy to begin with, and a hermeneutic device Indian masters wholly ignored.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:51 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:43 am
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:48 am

thus the term 'suffering' does not exist (nor necessary) in the definitive teaching of mahayana.
Making up the Dharma as you go along, huh? Can you find me even one master in any tradition who maintains this point of view you are proffering?
For the spirit of academic/scholastic discussion of buddhism, one should uphold the Buddha's injunction as stated in the four reliances. One of that apply in this, is not to rely on the person (teacher) but the teaching (dharma). Therefore your asking for authority of teacher for anything being discussed, is an open opposition to the buddha's injunction, a sign of weakness in buddhist cultivation.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:59 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:45 am
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:41 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm


No, actually it isn't —— and it is for this reason that there are disputation and multiple opinions about what is provisional and what is definitive.
Usually it is only related to a certain controversial sutras, we just have to read into the meaning of this sutras, that is all.
No, actually these controversies apply to entire classes of sūtras, and we have not even begun to get into tantras.

The whole idea of "three turnings" is very sketchy to begin with, and a hermeneutic device Indian masters wholly ignored.
I don't care of other Tibetan sutras which have no use to me anyway, all I care about is that no buddhist authority I have known ever refute the authenticity of the chinese tripitaka, and all controvesial sutras have already being isolated in this system. We have enough definitive sutras in the tripitaka to not to bother with those controvesial sutras.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by ItsRaining » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:45 am
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:41 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm


No, actually it isn't —— and it is for this reason that there are disputation and multiple opinions about what is provisional and what is definitive.
Usually it is only related to a certain controversial sutras, we just have to read into the meaning of this sutras, that is all.
No, actually these controversies apply to entire classes of sūtras, and we have not even begun to get into tantras.

The whole idea of "three turnings" is very sketchy to begin with, and a hermeneutic device Indian masters wholly ignored.
Divākara from the Nalanda reported that in India there were two masters at Nalanda the abbot of Nalanda and Xuanzang's teacher Śīlabhadra and Jnanaprabha. The first taught the Three Turnings with the Third Turning as Yogacara and most definite whereas the latter taught the Madhyamka as the definite teaching.

But the Huayan Patriarch Fazang Xianshou notes that the Prajna Sutras cannot be classified as only second turning and in the end places Yogacara on a level lower than Madhyamaka.

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Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 pm


What do you think "resting in rigpa" means? Let's define our terms here.
Exactly what Rinpoche means when he says "being in the natural state," "being in the state of Guru Yoga," "being in your primordial state," "being in instant presence," etc.
This is too vague. And you are not telling me what YOU think these phrases mean. For example, are these mental states or not? Are they samadhis or not? If they are samadhis, then what kind of one pointedness do they represent? As far as I can see, these slogans don't tell us anything really. Do you experience pain differently when you are doing guru yoga? How? If someone experiences normal pain when they are doing guru yoga are they failures? etc.
You are missing my point. What I recalled above are the phrases which Rinpoche uses interchangeably, without interpreting them in terms of some typology of one-pointednesses. He just says that when you are resting in the state of rigpa (and here he will use any of the phrases I recalled, too) the pain *may* lessen or be somehow transformed.
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 am
As far as I can see, these slogans don't tell us anything really
And yet Rinpoche uses them all the time, without specifying different contexts in which these terms would mean different things.
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 am
Do you experience pain differently when you are doing guru yoga? How? If someone experiences normal pain when they are doing guru yoga are they failures? etc.
All I have heard from Rinpoche -- and other Dzogchen teachers -- about these things I have already posted in this thread. I have no real knowledge of the Holy Writ to check their words against the words of the tantras or other masters, so, just like the 99% of "Western" Vajrayana Buddhists, I can only trust them here (as elsewhere), and will gladly do so. (And I have a strict PM-only policy when it comes to talking about my meagre-to-non-existent meditative experiences: I am not going to discuss them openly because I do not believe anyone would benefit from it.)

If you yourself know the answers to the questions you are posing, please just tell us what they are.

A problem which is becoming more and more visible for me can be summed up like this:

When Rinpoche teaches, he gives an incredibly concise description of the proper Dzogchen View, Meditation and Behaviour. He tells us time and again that this is all we really need, packing everything into a few absolutely essential points which we all here know by heart.

But the more one reads DW, the more it appears that in order to make heads or tails of the most basic and the most essential things he teaches (and thus properly practice them), you need to spend years reading around, studying Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, Vajrayana tantras, Dzogchen commentaries -- preferably in Sanskrit and Tibetan.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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