Kyab Rig

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Johnny Dangerous
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Kyab Rig

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:54 am

So I often hear "rocks and stones don't have Buddha nature" where Kyab Rig is concerned, or something along those lines, Makes sense, kind of an obvious thing to say, but here is my question:

If the Five Light arise from the basis, and all matter is ultimately the Five Lights, doesn't this mean that in fact, in some sense all matter is pervaded by awareness, just simply not "from it's own side"?

If not, can someone explain the apparent contradiction, how/where is this concept precisely explained?
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Malcolm
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:42 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:54 am
So I often hear "rocks and stones don't have Buddha nature" where Kyab Rig is concerned, or something along those lines, Makes sense, kind of an obvious thing to say, but here is my question:

If the Five Light arise from the basis, and all matter is ultimately the Five Lights, doesn't this mean that in fact, in some sense all matter is pervaded by awareness, just simply not "from it's own side"?

If not, can someone explain the apparent contradiction, how/where is this concept precisely explained?
According to JLA, khyab rig is a Bonpo term for tathāgatagarbha, that has been misunderstood to mean that inanimate things like rocks have rigpa. Read the series of posts in the posted link above.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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florin
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by florin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:08 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:54 am
So I often hear "rocks and stones don't have Buddha nature" where Kyab Rig is concerned, or something along those lines, Makes sense, kind of an obvious thing to say, but here is my question:

If the Five Light arise from the basis, and all matter is ultimately the Five Lights, doesn't this mean that in fact, in some sense all matter is pervaded by awareness, just simply not "from it's own side"?

If not, can someone explain the apparent contradiction, how/where is this concept precisely explained?
But these five lights, which are symbols for the essence of the infinite diversity of phenomena as they appear to a mind, should never be thought of as ontological events. When we start mixing perspectives all kinds of errors start appearing. That is why quite often dzogchen is misunderstood and gets mixed with other perspectives that are not of buddhist extraction, creationists, substantialists.. etc. All kinds...
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:19 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:54 am
If the Five Light arise from the basis, and all matter is ultimately the Five Lights, doesn't this mean that in fact, in some sense all matter is pervaded by awareness, just simply not "from it's own side"?
No, the reason for this is that such appearances are a result of traces, i.e., all appearances may be mind, but that does mean that a mind is present in every instantiated appearance. Hence, even though out of ignorance the five lights are reified into the five elements, rocks nevertheless do not possess minds or rigpa. As florin points out, the five lights are just symbols for the qualities of the five pristine consciousness, but even here it is important to remember that the five pristine consciousnesses are 'relative,' as opposed to the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis (essence, nature, and compassion) which are 'ultimate.'
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

mirrormind
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by mirrormind » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 pm

This is very helpful. I always felt there was some contradiction or a missing explanation with regard to the sequence of matter, light, yeshe, and I had in fact meant to ask this question for a long time.

Would it be possible to say a bit more about the two types of pristine consciousness and how they are understood to be different? I have heard essence, nature, and compassion used as descriptors or qualities of the basis but not as pristine consciousnesses. Could one speak of a pristine consciousness of kadag and lhundrub respectively?
You can't think your way out of samsara.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by krodha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:35 pm

mirrormind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 pm
This is very helpful. I always felt there was some contradiction or a missing explanation with regard to the sequence of matter, light, yeshe, and I had in fact meant to ask this question for a long time.

Would it be possible to say a bit more about the two types of pristine consciousness and how they are understood to be different? I have heard essence, nature, and compassion used as descriptors or qualities of the basis but not as pristine consciousnesses. Could one speak of a pristine consciousness of kadag and lhundrub respectively?
You've probably heard of them referred to as the "three wisdoms" of the basis. Three ye shes [jñāna]. "Pristine consciousness" is just an alternate gloss.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Sennin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:32 pm

Buddhas awaken to the Great Stage of Liberation once all phenomenon including the 5 wisdoms of the sambhogakaya and 2 wisdoms of the nirmanakaya are exhausted.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:19 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:54 am
If the Five Light arise from the basis, and all matter is ultimately the Five Lights, doesn't this mean that in fact, in some sense all matter is pervaded by awareness, just simply not "from it's own side"?
No, the reason for this is that such appearances are a result of traces, i.e., all appearances may be mind, but that does mean that a mind is present in every instantiated appearance. Hence, even though out of ignorance the five lights are reified into the five elements, rocks nevertheless do not possess minds or rigpa. As florin points out, the five lights are just symbols for the qualities of the five pristine consciousness, but even here it is important to remember that the five pristine consciousnesses are 'relative,' as opposed to the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis (essence, nature, and compassion) which are 'ultimate.'
Ok this helps, but what is the precise relationship between matter and awareness? I realize (obviously) that a rock cannot have it's own rigpa, so what *is* the relationship of a rock to rigpa? Given the above it would seem that the answer is that in some sense matter is "product" of awareness, or lack of it more accurately, but in what way I am not sure.

BTW, I have not seen any teacher that teaches that rocks have rigpa, and find this a bit of a red herring when I see it presented as if it's someone's actual argument, which makes JLA's posts less interesting to me than I guess they might be had I ever actually heard anyone say this.
but that does mean that a mind is present in every instantiated appearance.
That does not make sense to me, if matter ultimately arises from the lights which arise form the basis, at what point does matter become completely "cut off" from awareness? How would it be possible to achieve the rainbow body etc. if that were so? Mind is present in some appearances but not in others? How is that explained?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:45 pm

florin wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:54 am
So I often hear "rocks and stones don't have Buddha nature" where Kyab Rig is concerned, or something along those lines, Makes sense, kind of an obvious thing to say, but here is my question:

If the Five Light arise from the basis, and all matter is ultimately the Five Lights, doesn't this mean that in fact, in some sense all matter is pervaded by awareness, just simply not "from it's own side"?

If not, can someone explain the apparent contradiction, how/where is this concept precisely explained?
But these five lights, which are symbols for the essence of the infinite diversity of phenomena as they appear to a mind, should never be thought of as ontological events. When we start mixing perspectives all kinds of errors start appearing. That is why quite often dzogchen is misunderstood and gets mixed with other perspectives that are not of buddhist extraction, creationists, substantialists.. etc. All kinds...
No one is mixing perspectives of anything, if you can answer the question go ahead, if not, don't make assumptions like that, it's a valid question and doesn't require an admonishment, just a response.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:12 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:41 pm

That does not make sense to me, if matter ultimately arises from the lights which arise form the basis, at what point does matter become completely "cut off" from awareness?
Matter is a an appearance of ignorance, not knowledge (rig pa).
How would it be possible to achieve the rainbow body etc. if that were so? Mind is present in some appearances but not in others? How is that explained?
The appearances of ignorance are the mutual traces of sentient beings appearing to one another. When that ignorance is removed, one can manifest rainbow body.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:12 am


Matter is a an appearance of ignorance, not knowledge (rig pa).
Arising from traces from a previous universe, ad infinitum?

The appearances of ignorance are the mutual traces of sentient beings appearing to one another. When that ignorance is removed, one can manifest rainbow body.
Ok, i'l chew on that for a while, thanks.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Luca Vliolini » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:50 am

Hi there is man opinion between scholar about .The Bonpo master have their opinion I put a very important explanation by Tenzin Wangyal and about Anne Klein.
Here Tenzin Wangyal Explanation.1992-1993 Austria 21 Nails

there is a very important explanation of the Rigpa. It is also a very rare kind of explanation and is honoured because of its clear distinction. It explains that there are three kinds of Rigpa. Usually one question arises in the normal usage of explanation of the Rigpa. If the Rigpa is never distracted in its base or essence and it is like Buddhahood, does that mean that we don`t need to practise. If Rigpa is never distracted we shouldn`t need any practices to overcome our own distraction.
This first Rigpa is called khyabrig, with the meaning of all pervading awareness; in Tibetan kun khyab means all pervading, rig stands for Rigpa which is usually rendered as pure awareness. This rig, which is not awareness in our normal way of understanding as being aware of something, but awareness as nature or essence which is presence. This first Rigpa we are talking here is called khyabrig or whole pervading because it is everywhere. It is the base. It is primordially perfect. For example the sun in the sky, meaning there is light everywhere in the whole sky and at the same time there is the reflection of the sun in the water, the ocean; There is a light, this light in and on the water which reflects on the wall and on the wall there is again sunlight from the top. This different forms of sunlight have differnt qualities like a very heat quality, one has a very wet quality, one is a dry quality but still all have the quality of sunlight in that specific quality. This means this first Rigpa is everywhere, in each base, therefore kunkhyab (kun khyab) - all pervading or pervading the whole existence.
The second kind of awareness is called samrig (bsam rig), which means consciousness-awareness. This consciousness awareness is very important because it is this where we usually have problems. Problem in the sense that we have usually understanding and non-understanding. All our questions which arise from this consciousness-awareness. When we do not understand and when we are distracted we go to the master and try to receive teachings. Then we try to practise and when we manage to practise in the right way we come to an understanding. Sometimes we are distracted, sometimes not. These changes of awareness is called samrig or consciousness-awareness. Before we explained the external vision, we said that there are no limitations. Everything is possible. In the same way as the visions are not limited our awareness is omnipervasive. Our awareness has no limitations. It can perceive everything in an equal taste. The problem is just our consciousness which is our conceptual consciousness. It comes as the dualistic mind and it is at that point that we don`t understand anymore the things which are actually quite simple. This mind blocks ourselves to understand. When it does not arise we understand things how they are. This is the function of the consciousness-awareness. It is different from the first awareness which is always present. Before, in the teaching there was this explanation to just leave it in that omnipervasiveness, this awareness pervading everything. It is the potential or possibility of all visions. To leave it there means don`t move the other consciousness-awareness, which is grasping. Then, there is the third one which is called yerig or primordial-awareness. This is more connected with the second one, the conciousness-awareness. There is always the unification of the Rigpa as a consciousness-awareness with the vision. It is not seperate. It is pure. It has the quality that there is always presence in the vision, therefore it is called primordial. Even if it were to be distracted it is not really distracted. There is this consciousness on this awareness which is always there and this is called primordial. It is the one which always stays in presence, and with this presence I integrate all my visions. That means that through my consciousness I actually remove my distractions and integrate everything with this consciousness-awareness samrig. The base, which is one for all things, is already there all the time, uninterupted is called the primordial awareness or yerig.hese three kinds of Rigpa are explainded here and I find them very important because when we usually talk of Rigpa we do not distinguish. In a sense we always talk of Rigpa as being pure, perfect and then what happens is that we constantly find ourselves ignorant. We are just confused all the time. It is important to understand why we are confused when Rigpa is perfect. Our own Rigpa is perfect and at the same time we are confused. That is because our primordial awareness is spontaneously perfect from primordial time. And because of that awareness (ye rig) we have the possibility to develop the consciousness-awareness (bsam rig). It is like if we shake milk, if there is not the possibiliy to become butter we could shake endlessly it would never become butter. In the same way as we have that quality of awareness (ye rig) we can develop our consciousness-awareness (bsam rig). That is important to understand.
In the same way the primordial awareness or yerig is always there and through our consciousness-awareness or samrig which is sometimes distracted ond sometimes present we can arrive in that primordial presence. Whereas the whole pervading awareness or khyabrig, which pervades all existence is always there. It is the nature of existence. This is called awareness or Rigpa because everything has one fundamental quality or nature. For example a flower has this all-pervading awareness or khyabrig but a flower has no consciousness-awareness (bsam rig) and therefore no primordial awareness (ye rig). This allpervading awareness is not an awareness in our normal way of thinking and understanding awareness or consciousness, therefore we use Rigpa and not consciousness. But when we talk of kunzhi as the base of everything and it would not exist in some way in the flower then it would not be the base of everything. And it is not only the base of the flower but of every existence. This quality is the absolute reality of all existence. It is not only the reality of us human beings.
But then you might ask, if it is in everything why is there only for us human beings the possibility for realization? Why can`t a flower realize the nature of mind? It is because the flower has no consciousness-awareness, only all-pervading awareness. For example the sun shines in the sky and does reflect everywhere but not in a piece of coal. It reflects in the crystal because a crystal has the potentiality and quality to reflect and the coal has no potential quality to reflect. That does not mean the sun does not shine everywhere.
Another way of understanding is when we talk usually that everything you perceive outside is like a dream. You should always remember these things which are already explained to you; otherwise it does not make any sense to explain it. We can also say that this flower is like a dream It does not exist in the way as we are perceiving this flower. There is something, but it could also be a stone. What we see there could be a flower but also a stone and if it is something what we perceive we call it flower. Then if we go and analyze this flower on what we think or expect to be a flower and take out the parts of the flower like the petals one by one, we do not find something concrete which is the real flower. What we think the flower is we do not find anywhere if we search for it. This is a very conceptual way of looking at things and we don`t do that type of analyzing things. It is important to understand that in Dzogchen it is not important at all to analyze, but sometimes as we need to discuss we can also use this way of explaining. It is important to understand that if you really want to know what the flower is and you analyze that flower part by part, you take out petal by petal and so on. You don`t find a part which is the base of the flower. In each part of it we try to find the flower and we don`t find the flower at all. Then when you understand that there doesn`t exist something concrete called flower, that is called the base. Still there is something called the flower and that is allpervading awareness. It is important to discover this subtle existence. That is called clarity (gsal ba). Normally we do not discover this subtle existence or all-pervading awareness but we see only our flower. Likewise in the Sutra (mdo) it talks a lot about emptiness, Shunyata or tongpanyi (stong pa nyid). In the Sutra it is said to prove that something does not exist is easy. It is easy to prove that there doesn`t exist something concrete like our flower, but to prove or to show you that there is something that exists is very difficult!
Sometimes you might think it is not important to teach in this way and you think you want to have direct introduction and direct experience. And it might be that you even have this direct understanding, but still you are in a dualistic condition. Therefore it is important to clarify yourself and your understanding with such a teaching

Luca Vliolini
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Luca Vliolini » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:02 am

Anne klein Unbounded Wholeness pag 105-107
Categories of Open Awareness
Despite the comfortable mythical or meditative feel of this claim, philosophically
it remains a challenge to explain how to juxtapose the need for practice
with the claim that wisdom is not new, or that Buddhas and sentient beings
are in a profound sense the same. Partly with this question in mind, Bon puts
forward a threefold enumeration of open awareness, which together with its
understanding of unbounded wholeness provides resources for resolving, or
at least releasing, the conundrum of the simultaneous existence of primordial
wisdom and delusion. In effect, it divides the functions of open awareness in
order to account for both the "new" and "primordial" aspects of it. In the Mother
Tantra, then, unlike in Authenticity, open awareness becomes a category, a trope
that encompasses actual open awareness as well as states that approximate it.
These three are known as pervasive, contemplative, and primordial open
awareness (khyab rig, bsam rig, ye rig). Pervasive open awareness refers to the
clarity that exists everywhere, pervading the material and immaterial alike;
despite its name, it is not itself an open awareness. Contemplative open awareness
is the awareness that arises through practice. Primordial open awareness
is a pristine state of awareness, always present in everyone. Though these three
are not, strictly speaking, a Dzogchen set of categories insofar as they derive
from the Mother Tantra, they are used in Pandita-style Bon Dzogchen instruction
to clarify the question of what newly arises in the course of Dzogchen
practice.
Expanding on this topic is an important contemporary work by Lopon Tenzin Namdak, Illuminating the Path of Freedom: Annotations to the Open
Sphere of Primordial Wisdom Chapter of the Mother Tantra (Ma rgyud ye shes thig
le'i mchan 'grel). There he elaborates the three types of open awareness
(pp. io.i3f£):
Pervasive open awareness (khyab rig) is the clarity that pervades everything,
the base which is a union of clarity and emptiness.
Contemplative open awareness (bsam rig) is an open awareness that in
meditation is aware of the abiding condition and in other contexts
does not see (it).
Primordial open awareness (ye rig) is, whether one is meditating or not, at
all times whatsoever, an open awareness that neither conjoins with
nor distances from the abiding condition that is the base. It is called
"open awareness and clarity."
There are also two [types of primordial open awareness]: (i) reflexively
broad open awareness of the abiding base (gzhi gnas gyi rang
rig) and (2) reflexively open awareness of the dawning dynamic display
(rtsal shar gyi rang rig). Although there is no [activity of] identification,
developmental cultivation, and so on in connection with
[open awareness of the] abiding base, there is a new identification.
There is also the development of gradual cultivation in relation to
the dawning dynamic display [category of open awareness]. Finally,
there must be an identification that is not different from the reflex
Like the sun that shines everywhere—on stone, wood, and crystal—open
awareness is present in all things, though not everything has the same quality
to reflect it, just as stones, though the sun shines on them, cannot reflect its
light back very well. Only when sun shines on something capable of mirroring
it back, such as crystal or water, can it be identified there. Thus, there are
instances when pervasive open awareness does not recognize itself.
The second type mentioned here, contemplative open awareness, is actually
a consciousness, not an open awareness. Strictly speaking. Dzogchen does
not accept the contemplative open awareness discussed in the Mother Tantra
but focuses instead on primordial and pervasive open awareness.23 Authenticity,
however, in effect uses an analogue of this second category when it describes
the open awareness cognizant of all the disparate displays inherent in unbounded
wholeness. Another way to put this is to say that there is meditation
and development with respect to the open awareness that dawns as dynamic
display (rtsal shar gyi rigpa'i ye shes) but not with respect to primordial wisdom
itself, into which the open awareness of dynamic display eventually dissolves.24
In meditation, contemplative open awareness functions as a bridge from
delusion to the awareness of the abiding condition. In the language of the
Mother Tantra, this abiding condition is primordial open awareness; it is what
Authenticity calls reflexively authentic open awareness. Further, the locus of its
authenticity is open awareness itself. This is what is primordial.

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