Kyab Rig

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm

I attended a teaching with TWR in 2016 where this issue came up. Here is the relevant passage from the transcript:
Q: I felt very happy and a couple of questions arose from that. One was, is this the same thing in all of us? This boundless mind? Is this the same in everyone? This is one question. And the other was, does this exist within the confines of the body and does it have a life apart from the body?

TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter. You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.

The second one is what we call primordial innate awareness. Every sentient being, everybody who has a mind, has this. In our tradition we do not say this cup has a mind. Sometimes people say everything is consciousness or something like that. We don't say it that way. We say this cup does not share the same thing. Every being that has a mind has primordial innate awareness. It is an awareness directly related to every specific consciousness. The first consciousness we share with the cup. The second one we do not share with the cup. We share that with each other.

The third one is called conscious innate awareness. Only those who are conscious of it have conscious innate aware. They share that together. All of the people who are not conscious of it do not share this. It is not about what it is. It is about being aware of what it is. The openness is always there, but we are not aware of the openness. The awareness makes a big difference. For us, the most important factor of our development is knowing something. Knowing is the most imporant thing. Knowing is like a connection. So during the practice when you are aware, that is the moment when you are developing. Remember we said that even though the awareness of stillness is dual, the stability of the mind depends on the mind's continuous connection to the body's stillness. When it loses the connection, and you are not aware any more, it does not help the mind to stabilize. In the same way, when the mind is aware of the sacred space we can be nourished by that space. I talked about space giving a sense of freedom. Space will not give any sense of freedom when you lose the connection to it. Being connected to that sacred space is what gives you freedom.

Q: Are there specific words for that in Tibetan?

TWR: Yes. They are called chaprik, yerik, and samrik. This comes from Mother Tantra.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 pm

Everything clear, it means pilars do not have mind.

The misunderstanding of this was the reason for this discussion.

Who caused then this misunderstanding?

We're all answers from TW before or after the dispute with JLA?
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed May 02, 2018 7:07 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 pm
We're all answers from TW before or after the dispute with JLA?

If you are asking me, I don't really know anything about this dispute, but this teaching was given some time between October 21 and 23, 2016.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by krodha » Wed May 02, 2018 7:42 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter. You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.
This is certainly unconventional, especially given how the body and matter manifest.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 8:22 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:42 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. c You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.
This is certainly unconventional, especially given how the body and matter manifest.
TW :
One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter.
Emptiness which creates and emptiness in which matter is embedded is common to matter / phenomenon .
But innate awareness, leads here in the above mentioned explanation also to matter, or innate awareness would abide (too) in matter, that is wrong.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by florin » Wed May 02, 2018 8:58 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
I attended a teaching with TWR in 2016 where this issue came up. Here is the relevant passage from the transcript:
Q: I felt very happy and a couple of questions arose from that. One was, is this the same thing in all of us? This boundless mind? Is this the same in everyone? This is one question. And the other was, does this exist within the confines of the body and does it have a life apart from the body?

TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter. You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.

Is he talking about an self-existing dimension of awareness that is independent of specific and individual minds? Is this what he means when he says "beyond"?
I need to ask because i can't quite believe what i am seeing.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 9:03 pm

florin wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:58 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
I attended a teaching with TWR in 2016 where this issue came up. Here is the relevant passage from the transcript:
Q: I felt very happy and a couple of questions arose from that. One was, is this the same thing in all of us? This boundless mind? Is this the same in everyone? This is one question. And the other was, does this exist within the confines of the body and does it have a life apart from the body?

TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter. You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.

Is he talking about an self-existing dimension of awareness that is independent of specific and individual minds? Is this what he means when he says "beyond"?
I need to ask because i can't quite believe what i am seeing.
Guess meant here is Nature goes beyond and we are not Nature would be additional.
Means we all share certain aspects of Nature.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by florin » Wed May 02, 2018 9:05 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:03 pm
florin wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:58 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
I attended a teaching with TWR in 2016 where this issue came up. Here is the relevant passage from the transcript:



Is he talking about an self-existing dimension of awareness that is independent of specific and individual minds? Is this what he means when he says "beyond"?
I need to ask because i can't quite believe what i am seeing.
Guess meant here is Nature goes beyond and we are not Nature would be additional.
Are you talking about nature of mind ?

And can someone explain why my answer appears inside quotes ? I cant make it work for some reason.
I guess this is a trick of nature :smile: .No outside or inside
Last edited by florin on Wed May 02, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed May 02, 2018 9:05 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:42 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter. You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.
This is certainly unconventional, especially given how the body and matter manifest.

Yah, is that a beauty or what?
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

florin wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:05 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:03 pm
florin wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:58 pm


Guess meant here is Nature goes beyond and we are not Nature would be additional.
Are you talking about nature of mind ?
Nature of Mind is part of / related to, Nature that is what i mean.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by florin » Wed May 02, 2018 9:11 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm
florin wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:05 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:03 pm


Are you talking about nature of mind ?
Nature of Mind is part of Nature that is what i mean.
So there is a bigger nature then ?
And why are our quotes messed up? help.... :techproblem:

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 9:13 pm

florin wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:11 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Nature of Mind is part of Nature that is what i mean.

So there is a bigger nature then ?


And why are our quotes messed up? help.... :techproblem:
In Nature, nothing is bigger or smaller.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 9:37 pm

:focus:

If i understood it well, then the above mentioned transcript of a teaching given by TW , would be identical to the teachings he gave before October 21 and 23, 2016.
(See Krodha´s note)

- The discussion about Kyab Rig and Dorje Pizza, was from about 2009.
- Also taken into account that TW was corrected (see JLA).

So, here i don´t understand something, maybe one of you could clear that up? :shrug:
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 9:43 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:37 pm
:focus:

If i understood it well, then the above mentioned transcript of a teaching given by TW , would be identical to the teachings he gave before October 21 and 23, 2016.
(See Krodha´s note)

- The discussion about Kyab Rig and Dorje Pizza, was from about 2009.
- Also taken into account that TW was corrected (see JLA).



So, here i don´t understand something, maybe one of you could clear that up? :shrug:


( By the way, many followed that discussion between Dorje Pizza and JLA. )
It is even somewhere on the web i guess so.



==============================

This was the end of the discussion and i hope to have the permission, to publish it here:

Achard Jean-LucDec 6, 2007

Hi,

To put an end to the debate, here is the actual quote
from Heart Drops in the Tibetan text (p. 26 line 2)

dang po ni/ bde gshegs snying pos 'gro ba yongs la
khyab pa tsam la 'dod pa'o/

"As for the first (i.e. khyab-rig), it is applied only
to the Quintessence of the Blissful Ones which
embraces all beings.
"

The Quintessence of the Blissful Ones is the
Sugatagarbha, i.e., the potential all beings (not
things
) have to reach enlightenment. For explanations
about this, you should read instructions dealing with
the 3rd Wheel of the Buddha's teachings.

If you don't believe my translation above, here is the
word by word which you can check by using dictionaries
on internet :

dang po= first
ni = as for
bde gshegs = Blissful Ones
snying pos= Quintessence (with an ergative mode)
'gro ba = beings
yongs la= all (plus an accusative case, lit. "to all")
khyab pa= embrace (verb)
tsam la= only, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY,
'dod pa = to appy, to designate, etc.

I hope this will help.
Jean-Luc

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/A-t ... essages/84
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by krodha » Wed May 02, 2018 10:05 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:05 pm
krodha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:42 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:43 pm
TWR: When we talk about wisdom or rigpa, they talk about three kinds of rigpa. One is pervasive innate awareness or pervasive space, which is everywhere - beyond your body, beyond your mind, in matter. You share that same space. You share that space with matter. You share that space with all other people, with every other consciousness. We are connected. Totally connected. No matter how far or close you are there are no differences.
This is certainly unconventional, especially given how the body and matter manifest.
Yah, is that a beauty or what?
It is a sloppy exposition.

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 02, 2018 10:15 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:05 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:05 pm
krodha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:42 pm

This is certainly unconventional, especially given how the body and matter manifest.
Yah, is that a beauty or what?
It is a sloppy exposition.
Agree, explanation by JLA explains very clear, that Kyab Rig, has to be seen in relation with Enlightenment or Sugatagatagarbha / Tathagatagarbha / Bodhicitta (absolute) , in case they would be synonymous.

The explanation of TW ,confuses por su menos.
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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Luca Vliolini » Wed May 02, 2018 10:29 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:43 pm



( By the way, many followed that discussion between Dorje Pizza and JLA. )
It is even somewhere on the web i guess so.



==============================

This was the end of the discussion and i hope to have the permission, to put it here down:

Achard Jean-LucDec 6, 2007

Hi,

To put an end to the debate, here is the actual quote
from Heart Drops in the Tibetan text (p. 26 line 2)

dang po ni/ bde gshegs snying pos 'gro ba yongs la
khyab pa tsam la 'dod pa'o/

"As for the first (i.e. khyab-rig), it is applied only
to the Quintessence of the Blissful Ones which
embraces all beings.
"

The Quintessence of the Blissful Ones is the
Sugatagarbha, i.e., the potential all beings (not
things) have to reach enlightenment. For explanations
about this, you should read instructions dealing with
the 3rd Wheel of the Buddha's teachings.

If you don't believe my translation above, here is the
word by word which you can check by using dictionaries
on internet :

dang po= first
ni = as for
bde gshegs = Blissful Ones
snying pos= Quintessence (with an ergative mode)
'gro ba = beings
yongs la= all (plus an accusative case, lit. "to all")
khyab pa= embrace (verb)
tsam la= only, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY,
'dod pa = to appy, to designate, etc.

I hope this will help.
Jean-Luc

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/A-t ... essages/84
Yes the problem with Dorje Pizza (that is me ) and Jla is that according Jla Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Twr have different opinion about Buddha nature But like I had quoted also according Lopon Tenzin Namdak the natural State is is called Buddha nature which
encompass all sentient beings and the whole existence.
I has been quotation since 10 years.But even I quoted the book the page the shows that there is not difference between Twr and Lopon Tenzin Namdak about Buddha nature this kind of dicussion is going on.An other quotation that I make since ten years .It is from Namkha Truldzo teaching 23 July -11 August 2006 page 39 By Lopon Tenzin Namdak
"All phenomena which exixts-internally externally -are all natural state ,so if everything is natural state then the question arise :Is the pillar the natural state or not?It has to be the natural state because we have already said ,we have made the premise ,that everything is the natural state .But it is not easy for us to accept that a pillar or a table is natural state"
I quote again these text and after 10 years I hope to put and end to this discussion. The position of Twr and Lopon about Kyab rig rigpa is the same for both Buddha natura encompass beings and things.For both pillar and a table are the natural State. I don't know if this position is right or not according Buddhism .Maybe Jla is right .From the point of view of Buddhism say that Buddha nature encompass being and things is something of eretic but this is the position of Bonpo Masters like Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Twr but also Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrug and Geshe Gelek .

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu May 03, 2018 12:40 pm

Luca Vliolini wrote:
Yes the problem with Dorje Pizza (that is me ) and Jla is that according Jla Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Twr have different opinion about Buddha nature But like I had quoted also according Lopon Tenzin Namdak the natural State is is called Buddha nature which
encompass all sentient beings and the whole existence.
We clearly saw in the teaching fromTW that he differs with Kyab Rig regarding the text explained by JLA (From heart Drops of Dharmakaya)
The teaching from TW was from before 2006. Proved is here the wrong interpretation of Kyab Rig.


Luca Vliolini wrote:

I has been quotation since 10 years.But even I quoted the book the page the shows that there is not difference between Twr and Lopon Tenzin Namdak about Buddha nature this kind of dicussion is going on.An other quotation that I make since ten years .It is from Namkha Truldzo teaching 23 July -11 August 2006 page 39 By Lopon Tenzin Namdak
Yes there is clearly difference according JLA and Lopon la who corrected TW for that misunderstanding


Luca Vliolini wrote:
"All phenomena which exixts-internally externally -are all natural state ,so if everything is natural state then the question arise :Is the pillar the natural state or not?It has to be the natural state because we have already said ,we have made the premise ,that everything is the natural state .But it is not easy for us to accept that a pillar or a table is natural state"

All phenomena have Nature as their source inanimate as well animate. Nature is all encompassing. Kyab Rig is clearly only related to Mind and Sugatagarbha and not to pillars. If you adhere after 12 years still that pillars have consciousness, then i give up the hope , that you ever will understand Nature and the Natural State.


I
Luca Vliolini wrote:
quote again these text and after 10 years I hope to put and end to this discussion. The position of Twr and Lopon about Kyab rig rigpa is the same for both Buddha natura encompass beings and things.For both pillar and a table are the natural State. I don't know if this position is right or not according Buddhism .Maybe Jla is right .From the point of view of Buddhism say that Buddha nature encompass being and things is something of eretic but this is the position of Bonpo Masters like Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Twr but also Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrug and Geshe Gelek .

That a table is equal to my Natural State would mean that when the table would be removed my Natural State would also be gone. Natural State is never an object or subject.
Out of the Natural State come empty visions and tables we try to integrate into this state.

Sure, Lopon La and JLA were right and Dorje Pizza as well TW were wrong, that is proven, according the above written replies and hope you can accept that as valid.........
Hope you will see one time pillars and tables, without a Natural State.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by Luca Vliolini » Thu May 03, 2018 1:17 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 12:40 pm
Luca Vliolini wrote:
Yes the problem with Dorje Pizza (that is me ) and Jla is that according Jla Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Twr have different opinion about Buddha nature But like I had quoted also according Lopon Tenzin Namdak the natural State is is called Buddha nature which
encompass all sentient beings and the whole existence.
We clearly saw in the teaching fromTW that he differs with Kyab Rig regarding the text explained by JLA (From heart Drops of Dharmakaya)
The teaching from TW was from before 2006. Proved is here the wrong interpretation of Kyab Rig.


Luca Vliolini wrote:

I has been quotation since 10 years.But even I quoted the book the page the shows that there is not difference between Twr and Lopon Tenzin Namdak about Buddha nature this kind of dicussion is going on.An other quotation that I make since ten years .It is from Namkha Truldzo teaching 23 July -11 August 2006 page 39 By Lopon Tenzin Namdak
Yes there is clearly difference according JLA and Lopon la who corrected TW for that misunderstanding


Luca Vliolini wrote:
"All phenomena which exixts-internally externally -are all natural state ,so if everything is natural state then the question arise :Is the pillar the natural state or not?It has to be the natural state because we have already said ,we have made the premise ,that everything is the natural state .But it is not easy for us to accept that a pillar or a table is natural state"

All phenomena have Nature as their source inanimate as well animate. Nature is all encompassing. Kyab Rig is clearly only related to Mind and Sugatagarbha and not to pillars. If you adhere after 12 years still that pillars have consciousness, then i give up the hope , that you ever will understand Nature and the Natural State.



That a table is equal to my Natural State would mean that when the table would be removed my Natural State would also be gone. Natural State is never an object or subject.
Out of the Natural State come empty visions and tables we try to integrate into this state.

Sure, Lopon La and JLA were right and Dorje Pizza as well TW were wrong, that is proven, according the above written replies and hope you can accept that as valid.........
Hope you will see one time pillars and tables, without a Natural State.
Maybe you must read more carefully is lopon Tenzin Namdak rhat said "All phenomena which exixts-internally externally -are all natural state ,so if everything is natural state then the question arise :Is the pillar the natural state or not?It has to be the natural state because we have already said ,we have made the premise ,that everything is the natural state .But it is not easy for us to accept that a pillar or a table is natural state" not me
If you read wrong then I can make quotation all time without result and Lopn Tenzin namdak said in his public teaching that Kyab Rig Rigpa is all encompassing awareness and that All-)Encompassing Awareness means that all the Natural State called Buddha Nature which encompasses all sentient beings and whole of existence; therefore it is called (All-) Encompassing Awareness"
It is Lopon tenzin namdak and not Luca Violini that said these things.But if you does not read carefully I quote for hundred years the same words without result.Kalden first we must read after you can reply

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Re: Kyab Rig

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu May 03, 2018 3:15 pm

Luca Vliolini wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 1:17 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 12:40 pm


We clearly saw in the teaching fromTW that he differs with Kyab Rig regarding the text explained by JLA (From heart Drops of Dharmakaya)
The teaching from TW was from before 2006. Proved is here the wrong interpretation of Kyab Rig.




Yes there is clearly difference according JLA and Lopon la who corrected TW for that misunderstanding



All phenomena have Nature as their source inanimate as well animate. Nature is all encompassing. Kyab Rig is clearly only related to Mind and Sugatagarbha and not to pillars. If you adhere after 12 years still that pillars have consciousness, then i give up the hope , that you ever will understand Nature and the Natural State.



That a table is equal to my Natural State would mean that when the table would be removed my Natural State would also be gone. Natural State is never an object or subject.
Out of the Natural State come empty visions and tables we try to integrate into this state.

Sure, Lopon La and JLA were right and Dorje Pizza as well TW were wrong, that is proven, according the above written replies and hope you can accept that as valid.........
Hope you will see one time pillars and tables, without a Natural State.
Maybe you must read more carefully is lopon Tenzin Namdak rhat said "All phenomena which exixts-internally externally -are all natural state ,so if everything is natural state then the question arise :Is the pillar the natural state or not?It has to be the natural state because we have already said ,we have made the premise ,that everything is the natural state .But it is not easy for us to accept that a pillar or a table is natural state" not me
If you read wrong then I can make quotation all time without result and Lopn Tenzin namdak said in his public teaching that Kyab Rig Rigpa is all encompassing awareness and that All-)Encompassing Awareness means that all the Natural State called Buddha Nature which encompasses all sentient beings and whole of existence; therefore it is called (All-) Encompassing Awareness"
It is Lopon tenzin namdak and not Luca Violini that said these things.But if you does not read carefully I quote for hundred years the same words without result.Kalden first we must read after you can reply
Tashi delek LV,

Maybe you copy here, the whole page(s) of that text to here , in which the Natural State and encompassing Awareness is explained, like you understood, i miss just that part of the Namkha Tröldzo.
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