Dzogchen and the relatlive world

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Penor
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Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Penor » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am

Hi all,
I'd like to hear peoples ideas about Dzogchen practice and dealing with the relative world.
It is topic of great interest me.

It appears to me that if a practitioner has a limited ability to integrate then he/she needs well developed skills to work with relative situations.

I get the feeling that there is a link between the skill and the natural state itself, that is: ones skill set, knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate. An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:56 pm

Penor wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am

knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate.
An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
Tashi delek P,

IMO, awareness about one´s Natural State, guarantees one´s ability, to integrate with (temporal) integration (regarding the dualisms of the mind of karma). By this way, ego / dualism, is diminished.
When one can abide for 24 hours in one`s Natural State, one is a living Buddha.
We know in Tibetan Buddhism many Living Buddhas.
The best meditation is no meditation

Penor
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Penor » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am

Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Josef » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm

Penor wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am
Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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weitsicht
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by weitsicht » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:13 pm

Penor wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am
An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial
That's a question and I think this question still awaits answer. An answer that I don't have but also wondered lately. It feels as if there is only little relevance in choosing the left or the right way or else.

My teacher said that one doesn't know if it wouldn't have taken Milarepa's debt to wear off through chores much quicker withoutthe niceties of Marpa's wife. It isn't too apparent to see which compassionate activity is the most appropriate one for each of these individual moments.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:01 pm

Penor wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am
Hi all,
I'd like to hear peoples ideas about Dzogchen practice and dealing with the relative world.
It is topic of great interest me.

It appears to me that if a practitioner has a limited ability to integrate then he/she needs well developed skills to work with relative situations.

I get the feeling that there is a link between the skill and the natural state itself, that is: ones skill set, knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate. An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
when natural state flourishes uninterrupted anywhere at any time in relative condition, then we can talk of integration.

i'm tempted to say this is the very state called enlightenment.
Identities are false and not true

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:41 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:01 pm
Penor wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am
Hi all,
I'd like to hear peoples ideas about Dzogchen practice and dealing with the relative world.
It is topic of great interest me.

It appears to me that if a practitioner has a limited ability to integrate then he/she needs well developed skills to work with relative situations.

I get the feeling that there is a link between the skill and the natural state itself, that is: ones skill set, knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate. An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
when natural state flourishes uninterrupted anywhere at any time in relative condition, then we can talk of integration.

i'm tempted to say this is the very state called enlightenment.
No need to mention that fisrt we must enter rigpa and go beyhond doubt about it.
Identities are false and not true

Penor
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:29 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Penor » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm
Penor wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am
Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche says if one is in the natural state, ones actions are not necessarily of benefit. The benefit is dependant on the stability one has.

Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Simon E. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:51 am

And on whether the benefit is immediately obvious. Or not.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Josef » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:41 pm

Penor wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm
Penor wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am
Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche says if one is in the natural state, ones actions are not necessarily of benefit. The benefit is dependant on the stability one has.
I'm not sure I would agree with him.
It seems that if we are talking about a practitioner who is just getting started on the path of Ati that very brief glimpses of rigpa would make this the case. Honestly, engaging in action at this level would most likely cause distraction. But for experienced practitioners who spend the majority of their time in the natural state they are fully manifesting the three kayas and their actions are certainly of benefit.
So, I would agree with your point about stability and it's impact on how one integrates conduct.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Penor
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:29 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Penor » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:15 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:41 pm
Penor wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm


That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche says if one is in the natural state, ones actions are not necessarily of benefit. The benefit is dependant on the stability one has.
I'm not sure I would agree with him.
It seems that if we are talking about a practitioner who is just getting started on the path of Ati that very brief glimpses of rigpa would make this the case. Honestly, engaging in action at this level would most likely cause distraction. But for experienced practitioners who spend the majority of their time in the natural state they are fully manifesting the three kayas and their actions are certainly of benefit.
So, I would agree with your point about stability and it's impact on how one integrates conduct.
Hi Josef,
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche and I are saying the same thing. Hs point is as you said also. One needs to have a certain level of stability for ones actions to be of benefit.
Rinpoche is very open to discussing points like this in length.

Penor
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Penor » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:23 am

Discussing poins like this with qualified masters helps remove doubt. I threw out the question on this forum to see if anyone else had ever thought of this point.
I apologise if it has added to any unneeded conceptualisation. 8-) In some ways and at some times it is useful to know these things.

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Ogyen
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Ogyen » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:24 am

Rigpa and clarity seem to go hand in hand. Clarity and action that benefits also seem to go hand in hand.

It doesn't necessarily mean one equates the other in a mathematical proportion... honestly I don't know if it does, but there seems to be a pretty tight relationship there as directly related to increasing capacity by increasing clarity in mind voice and body.
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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