Dzogchen and the relatlive world

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Penor
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Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Penor »

Hi all,
I'd like to hear peoples ideas about Dzogchen practice and dealing with the relative world.
It is topic of great interest me.

It appears to me that if a practitioner has a limited ability to integrate then he/she needs well developed skills to work with relative situations.

I get the feeling that there is a link between the skill and the natural state itself, that is: ones skill set, knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate. An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Penor wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am
knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate.
An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
Tashi delek P,

IMO, awareness about one´s Natural State, guarantees one´s ability, to integrate with (temporal) integration (regarding the dualisms of the mind of karma). By this way, ego / dualism, is diminished.
When one can abide for 24 hours in one`s Natural State, one is a living Buddha.
We know in Tibetan Buddhism many Living Buddhas.
The best meditation is no meditation
Penor
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Penor »

Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Josef »

Penor wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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weitsicht
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by weitsicht »

Penor wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial
That's a question and I think this question still awaits answer. An answer that I don't have but also wondered lately. It feels as if there is only little relevance in choosing the left or the right way or else.

My teacher said that one doesn't know if it wouldn't have taken Milarepa's debt to wear off through chores much quicker withoutthe niceties of Marpa's wife. It isn't too apparent to see which compassionate activity is the most appropriate one for each of these individual moments.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
jet.urgyen
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by jet.urgyen »

Penor wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am Hi all,
I'd like to hear peoples ideas about Dzogchen practice and dealing with the relative world.
It is topic of great interest me.

It appears to me that if a practitioner has a limited ability to integrate then he/she needs well developed skills to work with relative situations.

I get the feeling that there is a link between the skill and the natural state itself, that is: ones skill set, knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate. An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
when natural state flourishes uninterrupted anywhere at any time in relative condition, then we can talk of integration.

i'm tempted to say this is the very state called enlightenment.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by jet.urgyen »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:01 pm
Penor wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:48 am Hi all,
I'd like to hear peoples ideas about Dzogchen practice and dealing with the relative world.
It is topic of great interest me.

It appears to me that if a practitioner has a limited ability to integrate then he/she needs well developed skills to work with relative situations.

I get the feeling that there is a link between the skill and the natural state itself, that is: ones skill set, knowledge and experience of the relative world enhances one's ability to integrate. An interesting point: does integration necessarily guarantee ones actions will be beneficial

Thank you.
Penor
when natural state flourishes uninterrupted anywhere at any time in relative condition, then we can talk of integration.

i'm tempted to say this is the very state called enlightenment.
No need to mention that fisrt we must enter rigpa and go beyhond doubt about it.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Penor
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:29 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Penor »

Josef wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm
Penor wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche says if one is in the natural state, ones actions are not necessarily of benefit. The benefit is dependant on the stability one has.
Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Simon E. »

And on whether the benefit is immediately obvious. Or not.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Josef »

Penor wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am
Josef wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm
Penor wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 am Until one becomes a buddha, abiding in the natural state itself does not necessarily equip one with particular skills and knowledge in relation to relative objects or actions. Knowledge and skill is obtained by learning and training. eg: An arya being who is untrained in mechanics must be trained in this field before he/she can fix an engine.
That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche says if one is in the natural state, ones actions are not necessarily of benefit. The benefit is dependant on the stability one has.
I'm not sure I would agree with him.
It seems that if we are talking about a practitioner who is just getting started on the path of Ati that very brief glimpses of rigpa would make this the case. Honestly, engaging in action at this level would most likely cause distraction. But for experienced practitioners who spend the majority of their time in the natural state they are fully manifesting the three kayas and their actions are certainly of benefit.
So, I would agree with your point about stability and it's impact on how one integrates conduct.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Penor
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Re: Dzogchen and the relative world

Post by Penor »

Josef wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:41 pm
Penor wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am
Josef wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:20 pm

That's not quite the case.
If one is in the natural state all relative activities are spontaneously accomplished.
In the tsig don dzod Longchenpa even shows how Dzogchen is the only path that can be accomplished through conduct alone due to being in the natural state/rigpa.
This doesnt mean that one automatically knows how to fix an automobile engine, but it does mean that your relative conduct is fully integrated and benefits beings, which is the entire point.
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche says if one is in the natural state, ones actions are not necessarily of benefit. The benefit is dependant on the stability one has.
I'm not sure I would agree with him.
It seems that if we are talking about a practitioner who is just getting started on the path of Ati that very brief glimpses of rigpa would make this the case. Honestly, engaging in action at this level would most likely cause distraction. But for experienced practitioners who spend the majority of their time in the natural state they are fully manifesting the three kayas and their actions are certainly of benefit.
So, I would agree with your point about stability and it's impact on how one integrates conduct.
Hi Josef,
Jigme Namgyal Rinpoche and I are saying the same thing. Hs point is as you said also. One needs to have a certain level of stability for ones actions to be of benefit.
Rinpoche is very open to discussing points like this in length.
Penor
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Penor »

Discussing poins like this with qualified masters helps remove doubt. I threw out the question on this forum to see if anyone else had ever thought of this point.
I apologise if it has added to any unneeded conceptualisation. 8-) In some ways and at some times it is useful to know these things.
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Ogyen
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Re: Dzogchen and the relatlive world

Post by Ogyen »

Rigpa and clarity seem to go hand in hand. Clarity and action that benefits also seem to go hand in hand.

It doesn't necessarily mean one equates the other in a mathematical proportion... honestly I don't know if it does, but there seems to be a pretty tight relationship there as directly related to increasing capacity by increasing clarity in mind voice and body.
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