Dzogchen & renunciate lineage transmission

Post Reply
User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Dzogchen & renunciate lineage transmission

Post by Spelare » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:17 pm

Here's my situation: There are some practices that I received in a renunciate context, where I was exhorted to observe strict chastity and vegetarianism while engaged in them, among other moral strictures and purification practices. The core practices are clearly tantric in origin and similar to ones undertaken by tantrikas who do not observe the same strictures. However, in deference to the guru who gave me this transmission, I feel that perhaps I should respect his wishes, at least during periods when I engage in these practices intensively.

Am I correct in understanding that the samaya of dzogchen automatically trumps the samaya of this renunciate lineage? Is the appropriate course of action a) do these practices and dzogchen practices while behaving as a renunciate; b) do these practices and dzogchen practices without behaving as a renunciate; or c) do one or the other, possibly alternating observances throughout the year?

I suppose my inclination would be to observe renunciation outwardly for certain intervals, while inwardly knowing that it is not ultimately necessary. While observing renunciate behavior, I would maintain pure vision towards those not engaged in renunciation. My concern is to keep intact all the transmissions I have received. Does it really matter what I do outwardly, so long as I know I am not actually bound by any of it? Isn't a dzogchen practitioner free even to observe ritual purity from time to time? Maybe I am overthinking this. I'd appreciate some input, especially from people who've had to negotiate this question in their own practice.

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1990
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen & renunciate lineage transmission

Post by Josef » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:20 pm

Spelare wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:17 pm
Here's my situation: There are some practices that I received in a renunciate context, where I was exhorted to observe strict chastity and vegetarianism while engaged in them, among other moral strictures and purification practices. The core practices are clearly tantric in origin and similar to ones undertaken by tantrikas who do not observe the same strictures. However, in deference to the guru who gave me this transmission, I feel that perhaps I should respect his wishes, at least during periods when I engage in these practices intensively.

Am I correct in understanding that the samaya of dzogchen automatically trumps the samaya of this renunciate lineage? Is the appropriate course of action a) do these practices and dzogchen practices while behaving as a renunciate; b) do these practices and dzogchen practices without behaving as a renunciate; or c) do one or the other, possibly alternating observances throughout the year?

I suppose my inclination would be to observe renunciation outwardly for certain intervals, while inwardly knowing that it is not ultimately necessary. While observing renunciate behavior, I would maintain pure vision towards those not engaged in renunciation. My concern is to keep intact all the transmissions I have received. Does it really matter what I do outwardly, so long as I know I am not actually bound by any of it? Isn't a dzogchen practitioner free even to observe ritual purity from time to time? Maybe I am overthinking this. I'd appreciate some input, especially from people who've had to negotiate this question in their own practice.
There isnt a conflict. Dzogchen practitioners can be renunciates, look at Patrul for example.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

pemachophel
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Dzogchen & renunciate lineage transmission

Post by pemachophel » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:20 am

From Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche's "Calling the Guru from Afar":

Though accumulation and purification are naturally complete, may the accumulation of merit never be abandoned.
Though self and other are not two, may the generation of Bodhicitta never be curtailed.
Though one’s mind is realized as the Guru, may the practice of devotion and respect always be performed.
Though the Deity’s form is not separate from oneself, may I endeavor in the practice of the two stages.
I pray to You, the essence of the Buddha, the Vajra Guru, please think of me!
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1861
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen & renunciate lineage transmission

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:36 am

pemachophel wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:20 am
From Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche's "Calling the Guru from Afar":

Though accumulation and purification are naturally complete, may the accumulation of merit never be abandoned.
Though self and other are not two, may the generation of Bodhicitta never be curtailed.
Though one’s mind is realized as the Guru, may the practice of devotion and respect always be performed.
Though the Deity’s form is not separate from oneself, may I endeavor in the practice of the two stages.
I pray to You, the essence of the Buddha, the Vajra Guru, please think of me!
:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:

The Excellent Path of Supreme Great Bliss

A Prayer for Calling the Guru from Afar

by Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1688
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Dzogchen & renunciate lineage transmission

Post by Vasana » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:59 am

There is no real conflict. As you say, outwardly you can apply renunciate or bodhisattva conduct if you see fit while inwardly you can apply and integrate the higher views and practices.

In fact, sometimes your outer conduct can set up both the outer and inner conditions which are most conducive to recognizing and stabilizing your higher-yana view and meditation. Conduct in breif is knowing your own predispositions and habits and just doing that which is most conducive to the authentic view and meditation while avoiding that which weakens or blocks correct view and meditation.

For example, In the new translation of the Prajnaparamita in 10000 lines, there is a chapter that describes each paramita in relation to every other paramita and how they enhance one another and ultimately culminate in the perfection of wisdom which is synonymous in this case with the Great-Perfection.

http://read.84000.co/translation/UT2208 ... 1-002-4656
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Heruka85, Leif, LolCat, Phuntsog Tashi, smcj, xixek and 44 guests