Hva Shang Mahayana

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kalden yungdrung
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Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:17 pm

Tashi delek,

The famous Samye "debate".

Shantarakshita versus Hva Shang, or two outsiders who try to get a piece of the cake.

Some state clearly, that the outsider from China, was a Dzogchenpa.


What do you think?
The best meditation is no meditation

ItsRaining
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:11 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:17 pm

Shantarakshita versus Hva Shang, or two outsiders who try to get a piece of the cake.
Lmao, that's funny way to put it.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:01 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:11 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:17 pm

Shantarakshita versus Hva Shang, or two outsiders who try to get a piece of the cake.
Lmao, that's funny way to put it.
It was a funny debate, Hva Shan would have lost in favor of Indian Buddhism.
The winner takes all, or the whole pie.
Strange that somebody who is skilled in certain Dzogchen matters, would have lost from a Madyamika adherent........
Or maybe the Tibetan king was not so impressed about the Chinese in general?
The best meditation is no meditation

TsultimNamdak
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by TsultimNamdak » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:55 pm

The details of the Great Debate has been lost in the mists of time - even the outcome is disputed in the older sources. I doubt very much that Hvashang was a Dzogchenpa; he was more likely a Chan Buddhist, or at least influenced by Chan. Centuries later - well, about a thousand years later - some Nyingmapa scholars defended him. Interesting article here:

https://earlytibet.com/about/hashang-mahayana/

ItsRaining
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:43 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:01 pm
ItsRaining wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:11 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:17 pm

Shantarakshita versus Hva Shang, or two outsiders who try to get a piece of the cake.
Lmao, that's funny way to put it.
It was a funny debate, Hva Shan would have lost in favor of Indian Buddhism.
The winner takes all, or the whole pie.
Strange that somebody who is skilled in certain Dzogchen matters, would have lost from a Madyamika adherent........
Or maybe the Tibetan king was not so impressed about the Chinese in general?
I don't think we have an accurate or fair record of that debate unfortunately :(

"Tibetan Zen: Discovering a Lost Tradition" talks about how the Tibetan texts about the debate are written a long time after the debate and commissioned by a clan who sponsored the Indian monk. And the Chan texts (which are pretty nice) record the Indian Monk agreeing that the Chan teachings are valid and that it wasn't a debate more of a discussion. With Moheyan and Shantarakshita coming to an agreement at the end.
Question: What is observing the mind?

Hwa-Shang Answers: Observing the mind is to illuminate back on the origin of the mind, if the mind and thoughts move,(having concepts of) existence and non-existence, pure or impure, empty or non-empty, do not hold in mind any of this, also do not hold on to the one who is not observing. So the Vimalakirti Sutra states "Non-observance is Bodhi"

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:02 pm

Tashi delek,

Thanks for all of your comments. :twothumbsup:

Longchen Rabjam would have copied the text below from Hva Shang :
"White as well black clouds can cloud the sun".

The meaning would be that karma is covering the Natural State, also + karma
Natural State is without dualisms.

Longchen Rabjam Rinpoche as well Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche argue that Hva Shang would have some Dzogchen backgrounds / skills.
Because of the above mentioned saying, which is a very well known saying in Dzogchen and it would be said once by Hva Shang during the Samye "debate".

To know more about this (copying from text), maybe some Nyingmapas can explain this better according the visions of Longchen Rabjam Rinpoche,that would be great ! Longchen Rabjam studied the Samye "debate" with Hva Shang very well.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Lingpupa
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:14 pm

There are good reasons for suspecting that while the "debate" (which is now thought to be a shorthand for a series of exchanges) may have been primarily a religious/spiritual matter, its outcome was more than likely primarily political.

Did Tibet want to bow to China, or to India? Politically, India would have been very little threat. This would be partly because it was not a unified "India" as we now know it, unlike China which was a highly organised empire even then. There is also a rather well-known range of high and pointy hills between India and Tibet, making any conceivable military threat weaker again. There is no such barrier between the more eastern parts of Tibet and the more western parts of China – the terrain changes bit by bit. Travel would hardly have been easy, but there is no great obstacle like the Himalayas in the way.

So for Tibet to take India as the place it looked up to for the source of its spirituality and a big slice of its culture was, in political/military terms, a far less threatening choice than to give the same honour to China.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Hva Shang Mahayana

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:39 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:14 pm
There are good reasons for suspecting that while the "debate" (which is now thought to be a shorthand for a series of exchanges) may have been primarily a religious/spiritual matter, its outcome was more than likely primarily political.
Tashi delek L,

Agree, politics were sure in the "debate".
Tibetans are very good in politics, strategy and diplomacy. (Dalai Lamas).

India anyway because there have been made efforts for Indian pandits etc., to get them inside Tibet.
Then the replacement of a Buddha, was needed because the old one was too much connected to Zhang Zhung.
Zhang Zhung states have been conquered and the central Tibetan king won this "war".

Yeh, the Chinese Hva Shan never would have made a chance to spread his philosophy inside Tibet.
Therefore Shantarakshita won the debate , or the Tibetan king did say so......

This philosophy that is very interesting because Hva Shang had a great philosophy, if we consider the white and black clouds saying which was copied by Longchen Rabjam Rinpoche.

Longchen Rabjam would have taken over from Hva Shang some philosophy, because he knew the meaning.
Then it must be clear that Hva Shang was not for the full 100% a Chan adherent but also a Dzogchenpa.
But if Chan can be compared to Dzogchen, that is already here aboard discussed.


Well i would like to know more about Longchen Rabjam and what he further took over as valid from Hva Shang "Mahayana".
The best meditation is no meditation

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