Yantra Yoga compared to...

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bryandavis
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Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by bryandavis » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:40 pm

Greetings all,

ChNNR states he learned and received clarification on yantra yoga from his uncle, and this is the tradition practiced at adzom gar.

My question is why is yy so different when compared to all the other trulkhor systems?

Every other trulkhor system Ive been exposed to or have seen bares some resemblance. But yy is of a different skeleton so to speak.

I also practice yy, so im not juat asking to ask. Im very curious as to how this one trulkhor stream seems to have maintained such a unique aproach.

Bryan.

TaTa
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by TaTa » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:09 pm

I would also like to hear more about this linage

Snowbear
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Snowbear » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm

There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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bryandavis
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by bryandavis » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:36 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
Mostly youtube, vimeo, reddit forums, dreams, cartoons etc.. then a bit from long term retreat, a few drupons, some freinds who have done three year retreat.

Oh, and my visit to copper colored mountain.

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bryandavis
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by bryandavis » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Malcom,

What dates do you put the root text of the trulkhor nyida khajor in the big yantra book?

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conebeckham
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by conebeckham » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:10 pm

I'm not too familiar with CNNR's system, other than a few videos I've seen, but in general are there the sorts of "Bebs" (forceful drops) found in Six Yogas Trulkhor in the Yantra systems, or in Dzogchen systems in general?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:42 am

What exactly is different?

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:34 am

bryandavis wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Malcom,

What dates do you put the root text of the trulkhor nyida khajor in the big yantra book?
No clue.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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bryandavis
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by bryandavis » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:57 am

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:10 pm
I'm not too familiar with CNNR's system, other than a few videos I've seen, but in general are there the sorts of "Bebs" (forceful drops) found in Six Yogas Trulkhor in the Yantra systems, or in Dzogchen systems in general?
There is a whole series in YY where beps are the ending movement of a sequence, though not crashing down jumps.

Then in the exercise for tummo the jumpimg lotus bep is used.

Also a concise / all inclusive series for developing heat.

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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Snowbear » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Do you know why ChNN felt OK to teach trulkhor openly?

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:12 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Do you know why ChNN felt OK to teach trulkhor openly?
He did so to see if people would be ready for his teachings in general. He was teaching Yantra in the early 70's in Italy, some years before he began to teach Dzogchen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Very interesting.
I have wondered about the similarities to "transnational yoga" as well. Not just the asana, but especially the names of the asana which (if some modern scholarship is to be believed) are new. It can be jarring to read "Yoga Body" by Mark Singleton, for example, and then look at some of the asana sequences....
...not that it really makes a difference in practice, and I mostly do the warm-ups and three "preliminary" sequences anyways.

Adzom Drukpa was alive during the formation of "transnational yoga," is it possible that he had contact with Indian Yoga practitioners?

I read somewhere (and I don't remember where, and I've looked) that part of Iyengar's break from Krishnamacharya was when the latter randomly demonstrated some Tibetan yoga to an interviewer. Iyengar was very offended that this would shown to a random person when he, Iyengar, had never even heard of it; this after Iyengar being one of the top students for many years.

Snowbear
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Snowbear » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:12 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm


The Lamdre Yantra system also has a system of 32 asanas that greatly resemble what we call Hathayoga. It's basic texts were codified in the 12th century.

YY is yantra in the traditional sense, actually. Whether it actually comes from Vairocana is a historical claim I cannot validate, but there are separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor in Tibet, not just ChNN's. It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
Do you know why ChNN felt OK to teach trulkhor openly?
He did so to see if people would be ready for his teachings in general. He was teaching Yantra in the early 70's in Italy, some years before he began to teach Dzogchen.
I understand it to be prep for completion stage practices in Kagyu, and done privately in a closed area. Is it customary to teach it that early and openly in Dzogchen?

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:50 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:12 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:18 pm


Do you know why ChNN felt OK to teach trulkhor openly?
He did so to see if people would be ready for his teachings in general. He was teaching Yantra in the early 70's in Italy, some years before he began to teach Dzogchen.
I understand it to be prep for completion stage practices in Kagyu, and done privately in a closed area. Is it customary to teach it that early and openly in Dzogchen?
Dzogchen is the highest teaching of those systems that have it, I don't think that it's traditionally customary to teach it openly and early at all. That is mostly new to our modern times.

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm
I understand it to be prep for completion stage practices in Kagyu, and done privately in a closed area. Is it customary to teach it that early and openly in Dzogchen?
Bairo Trulkhor does not require a creation stage, though at one time it may have been associated with Śrī Heruka (aka Yang dag) since it ultimately comes from Huṃkara.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Snowbear
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Snowbear » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:27 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm
I understand it to be prep for completion stage practices in Kagyu, and done privately in a closed area. Is it customary to teach it that early and openly in Dzogchen?
Bairo Trulkhor does not require a creation stage, though at one time it may have been associated with Śrī Heruka (aka Yang dag) since it ultimately comes from Huṃkara.

M
Does anyone practice Bairo in the context of completion stage today or is it for the most part a stand-alone set of exercises that anyone can do?

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bryandavis
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by bryandavis » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:27 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm
I understand it to be prep for completion stage practices in Kagyu, and done privately in a closed area. Is it customary to teach it that early and openly in Dzogchen?
Bairo Trulkhor does not require a creation stage, though at one time it may have been associated with Śrī Heruka (aka Yang dag) since it ultimately comes from Huṃkara.

M
Does anyone practice Bairo in the context of completion stage today or is it for the most part a stand-alone set of exercises that anyone can do?
If you are practicing this with out DI or empowerment, with no view etc, then it would fall out of the completion stage spectrum.

If you have intoduction , empowerment, and the view that comes with those things... then when you engage in trulkhor of any sort, then it must be completion stage if that is the term being refrenced.

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:30 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:27 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm
I understand it to be prep for completion stage practices in Kagyu, and done privately in a closed area. Is it customary to teach it that early and openly in Dzogchen?
Bairo Trulkhor does not require a creation stage, though at one time it may have been associated with Śrī Heruka (aka Yang dag) since it ultimately comes from Huṃkara.

M
Does anyone practice Bairo in the context of completion stage today or is it for the most part a stand-alone set of exercises that anyone can do?
Bairo Trulkhor also has various pranayāmas, and a kind of tummo. But no creation stage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

PeterC
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by PeterC » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:53 pm

climb-up wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 pm

I read somewhere (and I don't remember where, and I've looked) that part of Iyengar's break from Krishnamacharya was when the latter randomly demonstrated some Tibetan yoga to an interviewer. Iyengar was very offended that this would shown to a random person when he, Iyengar, had never even heard of it; this after Iyengar being one of the top students for many years.
I would not take at face value any rumours about modern hatha yoga. It’s also widely said, and not implausible given circumstantial evidence, that Krishnamacharya didn’t like Iyengar much, taught him very little, and that Iyengar made a lot of his style up. Similarly Jois is supposed to have developed his style from a manual that his guru directed him to read, but which nobody else ever saw, and on occasion he would laugh when people asked about it...the paper trail for Indian physical yogas is a little thin

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