Yantra Yoga compared to...

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Snowbear
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Snowbear » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:55 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
How did ChNN recieve it from Adzom Drukpa?

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:11 am

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:55 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:59 pm
It definitely comes from Adzom Drukpa.
How did ChNN recieve it from Adzom Drukpa?
Adzom Drugpa > Orgyen Tenzin > ChNN

I am not sure from whom Adzom obtained it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:45 am

PeterC wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:53 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 pm

I read somewhere (and I don't remember where, and I've looked) that part of Iyengar's break from Krishnamacharya was when the latter randomly demonstrated some Tibetan yoga to an interviewer. Iyengar was very offended that this would shown to a random person when he, Iyengar, had never even heard of it; this after Iyengar being one of the top students for many years.
I would not take at face value any rumours about modern hatha yoga. It’s also widely said, and not implausible given circumstantial evidence, that Krishnamacharya didn’t like Iyengar much, taught him very little, and that Iyengar made a lot of his style up. Similarly Jois is supposed to have developed his style from a manual that his guru directed him to read, but which nobody else ever saw, and on occasion he would laugh when people asked about it...the paper trail for Indian physical yogas is a little thin
That is in keeping with how I understand things. "Top student," probably wasn't the best phrasing.

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Snowbear
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Snowbear » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:30 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:27 pm


Bairo Trulkhor does not require a creation stage, though at one time it may have been associated with Śrī Heruka (aka Yang dag) since it ultimately comes from Huṃkara.

M
Does anyone practice Bairo in the context of completion stage today or is it for the most part a stand-alone set of exercises that anyone can do?
Bairo Trulkhor also has various pranayāmas, and a kind of tummo. But no creation stage.
You mentioned separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor. Who else is it that practices it?

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:23 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:30 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:59 pm


Does anyone practice Bairo in the context of completion stage today or is it for the most part a stand-alone set of exercises that anyone can do?
Bairo Trulkhor also has various pranayāmas, and a kind of tummo. But no creation stage.
You mentioned separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor. Who else is it that practices it?
It is fairly widespread in Eastern Tibet.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:23 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:30 pm


Bairo Trulkhor also has various pranayāmas, and a kind of tummo. But no creation stage.
You mentioned separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor. Who else is it that practices it?
It is fairly widespread in Eastern Tibet.
And it's the same form as ChNN teaches? Same yantra movements and everything?

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:07 pm

climb-up wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:23 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:04 pm


You mentioned separate lineages of Bairo Trulkhor. Who else is it that practices it?
It is fairly widespread in Eastern Tibet.
And it's the same form as ChNN teaches? Same yantra movements and everything?
Yes. Of course variations creep in, Tibetan tend to practice these with much more vigor than westerners. This is partially because it is so damn cold in Tibet
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:07 pm
climb-up wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:23 pm


It is fairly widespread in Eastern Tibet.
And it's the same form as ChNN teaches? Same yantra movements and everything?
Yes. Of course variations creep in
Nice!
, Tibetan tend to practice these with much more vigor than westerners. This is partially because it is so damn cold in Tibet
Lol, that makes sense!

Varis
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Varis » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
Hatha Yoga comes from Buddhism, this has been well established by academics. Any similarity is likely to be found there.
climb-up wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 pm
Very interesting.
I have wondered about the similarities to "transnational yoga" as well. Not just the asana, but especially the names of the asana which (if some modern scholarship is to be believed) are new. It can be jarring to read "Yoga Body" by Mark Singleton, for example, and then look at some of the asana sequences....
...not that it really makes a difference in practice, and I mostly do the warm-ups and three "preliminary" sequences anyways.

Adzom Drukpa was alive during the formation of "transnational yoga," is it possible that he had contact with Indian Yoga practitioners?
Specify which ones.
A lot of the postures Mark Singleton singles out as being modern, like the "cat pose" or "dog pose" are found in the Hathabhyasa Paddhati, and other yoga treatises, with the same names.

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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by jbaumannmontilla » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:58 pm

I also always wondered about this. I study Hatha yoga in Krishnamacharya lineage and also follow CNN. I never delved too deeply into Yantra Yoga because it seemed a little too hard physically for me. But I was stuck by similarities between Yantra Yoga and Krishnamacharya's approach . It seems that in YY the asanas are arranged and linked into vinyasas and that also that they are coordinated closely with pranayama, and with an emphasis on ujjayi. Krishnamacharya's approach to asana and pranayama seems very similar, although conceptually and spiritually he was basing himself in Yoga Sutra. It seems like academic consensus now is that Krishnamacharya was deeply influenced by European physical culture, but I always wondered if he was influenced by trulkor and tsa lung as well. Krishnamacharya claimed to have studied extensively in Tibet and Nepal, a claim which which academics seem to scoff at.

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:02 pm

jbaumannmontilla wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:58 pm
I also always wondered about this. I study Hatha yoga in Krishnamacharya lineage and also follow CNN. I never delved too deeply into Yantra Yoga because it seemed a little too hard physically for me. But I was stuck by similarities between Yantra Yoga and Krishnamacharya's approach . It seems that in YY the asanas are arranged and linked into vinyasas and that also that they are coordinated closely with pranayama, and with an emphasis on ujjayi. Krishnamacharya's approach to asana and pranayama seems very similar, although conceptually and spiritually he was basing himself in Yoga Sutra. It seems like academic consensus now is that Krishnamacharya was deeply influenced by European physical culture, but I always wondered if he was influenced by trulkor and tsa lung as well. Krishnamacharya claimed to have studied extensively in Tibet and Nepal, a claim which which academics seem to scoff at.
Krishanamacarya spent some time in Muktinatha in Nepal, close to the Tibetan border. For him, it was Tibet, Bhotia, as Tibet is called by Indians.

I mean, Indians regard Kailash as part of India, actually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:03 pm

Varis wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
Hatha Yoga comes from Buddhism, this has been well established by academics. Any similarity is likely to be found there.
climb-up wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 pm
Very interesting.
I have wondered about the similarities to "transnational yoga" as well. Not just the asana, but especially the names of the asana which (if some modern scholarship is to be believed) are new. It can be jarring to read "Yoga Body" by Mark Singleton, for example, and then look at some of the asana sequences....
...not that it really makes a difference in practice, and I mostly do the warm-ups and three "preliminary" sequences anyways.

Adzom Drukpa was alive during the formation of "transnational yoga," is it possible that he had contact with Indian Yoga practitioners?
Specify which ones.
A lot of the postures Mark Singleton singles out as being modern, like the "cat pose" or "dog pose" are found in the Hathabhyasa Paddhati, and other yoga treatises, with the same names.
I honestly don't remember, it's been a long time since I read his book and I no longer own it. I just remember that there were several things, including some of the names, that were jarring to see in an book on yoga purporting to be from the 8th century.

It seems established that it's a system spread throughout eastern Tibet that goes back at least to Adzom Drukpa though, which is more than enough for me (it works, and ChNN says it's good, which is enough for me).
It sounds like you disagree with Mark Singletons ideas, is that right? Is it his book in general, or the names specificLly that you mention?

Varis
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Varis » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:44 pm

climb-up wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:03 pm
It sounds like you disagree with Mark Singletons ideas, is that right? Is it his book in general, or the names specificLly that you mention?
While I don't deny the influence of European bodybuilding on MPY, more research needs to be done. There are thousands of untouched manuscripts in India, and as time has gone on, these postures have been found in medieval manuscripts. IMO Indologists need to start looking towards the living Buddhist traditions in Tibet to shed light on the topic.
Last edited by Varis on Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Postures like Kurma are mentioned by their Sanskrit name in the 12th century Lamdre Yantra text composed by Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
Posts: 434
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:02 pm

Varis wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:44 pm
climb-up wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:03 pm
It sounds like you disagree with Mark Singletons ideas, is that right? Is it his book in general, or the names specificLly that you mention?
While I don't deny the influence of European bodybuilding on MPY, more research needs to be done. There are thousands of untouched manuscripts in India, and as time has gone on, these postures have been found in medieval manuscripts. IMO Indologists need to start looking towards the living Buddhist traditions in Tibet to shed light on the topic.
That seems very fair.

Bj1
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Bj1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:45 pm

The work Christopher Tomkins might be of interest :

http://www.sutrajournal.com/christopher ... of-vinyasa

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 pm

Varis wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
Hatha Yoga comes from Buddhism, this has been well established by academics. Any similarity is likely to be found there.
Do you have some references for this?
Not that I doubt you, I'd just like to read up on it and on first glance not much is coming up.

Norwegian
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Norwegian » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:24 am

climb-up wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 pm
Varis wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
Hatha Yoga comes from Buddhism, this has been well established by academics. Any similarity is likely to be found there.
Do you have some references for this?
Not that I doubt you, I'd just like to read up on it and on first glance not much is coming up.
You can start here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=27286&p=422493

climb-up
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by climb-up » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:27 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:24 am
climb-up wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 pm
Varis wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm


Hatha Yoga comes from Buddhism, this has been well established by academics. Any similarity is likely to be found there.
Do you have some references for this?
Not that I doubt you, I'd just like to read up on it and on first glance not much is coming up.
You can start here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=27286&p=422493
Nice, thank you. That was good.

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Malcolm
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Re: Yantra Yoga compared to...

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:15 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 pm
Varis wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:45 pm
There is an obvious parallel to modern transnational yoga's asanas in YY, which indicates to me that YY is not trulkhor in the traditional sense. When you say you were exposed to other trulkhor systems, do you mean like on YouTube?
Hatha Yoga comes from Buddhism, this has been well established by academics. Any similarity is likely to be found there.
Do you have some references for this?
Not that I doubt you, I'd just like to read up on it and on first glance not much is coming up.
Also look at the work of Jame Mallison.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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