Illusion in Dzogchen

Lukeinaz
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Lukeinaz » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:56 pm
Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:56 pm
Is it possible to see or experience anything that is not illusion?
Usually, objects of awareness are illusion.
But awareness itself cannot be refuted.
Even if you argue, "all of this might simply be a dream"
there is awareness of that.
Thus, when, by practice, you are aware of awareness itself,
awareness becomes the object of awareness,
arising as both subject and object simultaneously,
going beyond dualism.
That's not illusion.
.
.
.
Beyond both subject and object how can there be experience?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

oldbob
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by oldbob » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:55 am

This is the nub / fulcrum / key point of the matter, direct experience / the pointing out instruction presents consciousness with a new / old way of perceiving which cannot be stated in words. It is like trying to write on air or water; yet cognizant experience happens. There is a take-a-way but it is not an intellectual understanding. It is direct experience unimpeded by thought. It is a way of being much attuned with the Way - the un-carved block of the Taoists, or "a lamp neither of East or West." Or, "I am alpha and omega." There is nothing to be said yet all words come from this source. It is a simple human characteristic present in all religions and cultures. It cannot be owned by any religion or culture because it cannot be spoken of.

Hmnnnnmnmn - sounds pretty profound. So how do you describe what cannot be put in words? A snake untying its own knot. The baron woman's child. A sky flower. A thief in an empty room. These are the traditional Dharma images yet these are still concepts.

To sum up: in one key point: the importance of taking direct introduction from a Dzogchen Master. This is different than intellectual understanding, and is why it is called "direct introduction." This is a profound spiritual transmission originating in antiquity yet still very much alive today.

Make the effort - show up - on the web in "web" real time of a web cast (still works fine) or preferably in person.

http://melong.com/events_listing/worldw ... -1-2-2017/

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917

So once you have taken direct introduction then you will understand by means other than understanding:

"Beyond both subject and object how can there be experience?"

Oh yes, then you will also know what is illusion and reality in Dzogchen and why this is not important to speak of.

:heart:

oldbob
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by oldbob » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:03 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:01 pm
oldbob wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:51 pm


No end to words (thought forms) - no end to the arising of pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising words.

So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by, informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:

and

All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:

and

Now you understand why "neither" and "both" are also necessary and completely correct when flavored by - informed by non-dual contemplation.
Tashi delek Old Bob,

Long time ago, how are you doing ?

Thanks for your contribution.

So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by, informed by, non-dual contemplation.
So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by dual contemplation

All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:
All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation.

The last example shows the finally correct vision about illusion imo., because it shows that in non-dual Dzogchen practice objects are seen as empty.
That empty realization = Experiencing visions as empty = illusion

Now is illusion a word which has a certain meaning here.....
I would replace illusion here with reality, what do you think ?
My 2 cents is that in non-dual Dzogchen practice all objects are seen as empty because the perception of any object is simultaneous with its effortless liberation in non-dual contemplation. So the "seen as empty" is not an intentional doing so much as a non-defined way of being: resting in self-arising luminosity, thoughts and emotions appear and vanish of their own energy with no identification or follow on.

"That empty realization = Experiencing visions as empty = illusion"

Yup, but there is no stating of this - it just is. This is the famous "one taste" of Dzogchen. Whatever appears or doesn't appear is just fine "as it is."

"I would replace illusion here with reality, what do you think ?"

My 2 cents.

It doesn't matter whether you name some experience as this or that name. What matters is that you allow all experience to manifest without intentional naming or reaction of any sort. Resting in equanimity / non dual contemplation, there is no need to call an experience "illusion" or "reality," and you could not, even if you wanted to. So whatever vision appears, or doesn't appear, your job is to observe this with awareness informed by / integrated with - non-dual contemplation.

Like words written on water, there is no harm calling this "reality" or "illusion", neither, or both, when integrated with non-dual contemplation.

This is why integration with non-dual contemplation is spoken of as Ati Guru Yoga, the primary practice of Dzogchen.

:heart:
Last edited by oldbob on Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:05 am

    Lukeinaz wrote:
    Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 pm


    Beyond both subject and object how can there be experience?

    Well that is the point, we call that experience, self Awareness and it has to be experienced, like everything in Buddhism.
    Beyond object and subject that means in Dzogchen "meditation", without the use of he consciousness and that makes Dzogchen not so understandable for Buddhists who work mainly with consciousness and dualisms (object and subject) / Madyamika, Tantra etc.

    Therefore Dzogchen was a long time misunderstood because of the non dual practice, about which others said this is nihilism.
    That lead to secrecy regarding Dzogchenpas and non Dzogchenpas.

    If we abide in the thoughtless State of Trekchö, then thoughts stop, and here starts Dzogchen practice / "meditation", and that non dual Self Awareness, which goes beyond object and subject. The latter are the tools of the dualistic mind of karma.
    Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
    The best meditation is no meditation

    oldbob
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    Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

    Post by oldbob » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:09 am

    kalden yungdrung wrote:
    Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:05 am
      Lukeinaz wrote:
      Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 pm


      Beyond both subject and object how can there be experience?

      Well that is the point, we call it self Awareness and it has to be experienced, like everything in Buddhism.
      Beyond object and subject that means in Dzogchen "meditation", without the use of he consciousness and that makes Dzogchen not so understandable for Buddhists who work mainly with consciousness and dualisms (object and subject) / Madyamika, Tantra etc.

      Therefore Dzogchen was a long time misunderstood because of the non dual practice, about which others said this is nihilism.
      That lead to secrecy regarding Dzogchenpas and non Dzogchenpas.

      If we abide in the thoughtless State of Trekchö, then thoughts stop, and here starts Dzogchen practice and that non dual Self Awareness, which goes beyond object and subject, the tools of the dualistic mind of karma.
      and indeed "the best meditation is no meditation." :cheers:

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      kalden yungdrung
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      Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

      Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:14 am

      oldbob wrote:
      Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:09 am



      and indeed "the best meditation is no meditation." :cheers:
      :cheers: :good:


      The best meditation is no meditation means:

      In Dzogchen we do not make use of meditation based on subject / object.
      in Buddhist meditation one makes mostly use of objects and subject
      Therefore Dzogchenpas say that if we do not meditate (with object and subject) that would be the best practice, which is not based on the general concept of Buddhist meditation sessions.

      instead of Dzogchen meditation one better can say Dzogchen practice.


      No meditation starts with Trekchö
      The best meditation is no meditation

      Lukeinaz
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      Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

      Post by Lukeinaz » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:39 pm

      oldbob wrote:
      Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:09 am
      kalden yungdrung wrote:
      Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:05 am
        Lukeinaz wrote:
        Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 pm


        Beyond both subject and object how can there be experience?

        Well that is the point, we call it self Awareness and it has to be experienced, like everything in Buddhism.
        Beyond object and subject that means in Dzogchen "meditation", without the use of he consciousness and that makes Dzogchen not so understandable for Buddhists who work mainly with consciousness and dualisms (object and subject) / Madyamika, Tantra etc.

        Therefore Dzogchen was a long time misunderstood because of the non dual practice, about which others said this is nihilism.
        That lead to secrecy regarding Dzogchenpas and non Dzogchenpas.

        If we abide in the thoughtless State of Trekchö, then thoughts stop, and here starts Dzogchen practice and that non dual Self Awareness, which goes beyond object and subject, the tools of the dualistic mind of karma.
        and indeed "the best meditation is no meditation." :cheers:
        Thank you gentleman.

        Can we also say:

        "In non dual contemplation there is neither experience or experiencer. This itself is real experience."
        You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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        Malcolm
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        Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

        Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:19 pm

        Lukeinaz wrote:
        Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:39 pm
        "In non dual contemplation there is neither experience or experiencer. This itself is real experience."
        Yes, and this is just the message of the Prajñapāramitā Sūtras, since of course, the meaning of the Great Perfection is exactly the same as the Prajñapāramitā Sūtras, the only difference is the method of arriving at that meaning.
        Buddhahood in This Life
        འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


        [A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

        -- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

        The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
        taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
        One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
        which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

        -- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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        PadmaVonSamba
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        Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

        Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:13 pm

        Lukeinaz wrote:
        Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 pm
        Beyond both subject and object how can there be experience?
        Not beyond subject and object...
        beyond the dualism of subject and object.

        When you search yourself for:
        " what is it that arises, which is perceiving"
        ...you see nothing can be found to exist intrinsically.

        Likewise, when you search a perceived object for some intrinsic essence that defines it,
        you find that no intrinsic essence can be found, because all phenomena are composites.
        what is perceived occurs but doesn't exist.

        when no perceiver can be found, and nothing that can be perceived exists,
        then how can there be a duality?
        That's what is meant by the realization that everything arises from emptiness.

        But you can't see it purely by intellectualizing it.
        That's why you have to meditate.
        It's like, you can talk about the water in theory but you can't experience it unless you get in.

        Why is it necessary to meditate?
        Because when the mind rests in its natural state, that's when you can have direct experience.
        It's like, if you are making noise, crickets stop chirping.
        As soon as you stop moving and making noise, you can hear crickets
        (at night, where there are crickets, of course. If you just hear crickets, it's probably your ears ringing!)
        :rolling:
        .
        .
        .
        Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
        People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

        oldbob
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        Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

        Post by oldbob » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm

        :good: all.

        Lots of crickets here in New Jersey. Can you hear them during the day?

        Or the million stars of the night sky. Can you see them during the day? Hence - the importance of dawn and dusk.

        In the end - sometimes hard to tell who is who or what is what: the swirl of illusion and reality.

        From that confusion can arise luminous clarity - bliss, clarity, and emptiness, if you have to name it.



        re: is it an internal cricket or an external cricket? Perception is a funny thing.

        Or Zhuangzi's butterfly story.

        The story, as translated by Lin Yutang, goes like this:

        "Once upon a time, I, Zhuangzi, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Zhuangzi. Soon I awakened, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things."

        https://www.thoughtco.com/butterflies-g ... on-3182587

        "The transition is called the transformation of material things."

        When you can't tell if your experience is inner or outer Parkey / butter or butterfly / Zhuangzi then interesting things happen.

        You loosen the tightly bound nexus of personality and can sink / relax into luminous clarity. Some call this Trekchod the Dzogchen view, but it is not necessary to call it anything, and from the luminous clarity side you can't call it anything even if you wanted to because words do not function here - like writing on water or air.

        So in the Great Completion there is nothing to say yet all words come from this place.

        This is the great completion of Dzogchen Yangti (dark retreat and leap over) as you integrate all experience into luminous clarity. These are two of the more than 120 secondary practices of Dzogchen as taught by ChNNR in over 500 retreats around the world.

        :applause: :applause: :applause: :heart: :heart: :heart:

        Long life to ChNNR and the Dzogchen Masters.

        May they remain present in good health, teaching in human form, till the end of time.

        A single life is illusory.

        Luminous clarity has no characteristics what-so-ever and so is beyond any limit.

        "The transition is called the transformation of material things."

        :heart:

        Lukeinaz
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        Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

        Post by Lukeinaz » Tue May 08, 2018 7:24 pm

        kalden yungdrung wrote:
        Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:14 pm
        Tashi delek,

        Am interested about:

        - Your reasoning and your vision about illusion.
        - In how far do you see illusion as "realistic"?

        Best wishes
        Illusion is to be experienced not analyzed.
        You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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        kalden yungdrung
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        Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

        Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 09, 2018 2:36 am

        Lukeinaz wrote:
        Tue May 08, 2018 7:24 pm
        kalden yungdrung wrote:
        Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:14 pm
        Tashi delek,

        Am interested about:

        - Your reasoning and your vision about illusion.
        - In how far do you see illusion as "realistic"?

        Best wishes
        Illusion is to be experienced not analyzed.
        Why do you think that illusion cannot be known by insight ?
        The best meditation is no meditation

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