Illusion in Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung
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Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:14 pm

Tashi delek,

Am interested about:

- Your reasoning and your vision about illusion.
- In how far do you see illusion as "realistic"?

Best wishes
The best meditation is no meditation

tatpurusa
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:43 pm

Tashi delek,

interesting question.

I would say illusion is everything conceptual ..
That means all operations of the ordinary mind
(as opposed to the nature of mind)

But talking about it is also conceptualizing - so how realistic is this illusion?

tp

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:29 am

I don't know if this reply has anything to do with your questions
but my understanding is that, generally speaking, the way we experience phenomena
is sort of a reflection of the "reality" of the experience we have of ourselves.
It's like, when people ask if the yidams and dharma protectors are "real"
they usually mean "real" the way they think of themselves as "real"
Unless they examine the reality of their own sense of self, unless they realize that
nothing arises that can be called the self or "me",
then the whole notion of real vs. illusion is just that...a dualism.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm

Illusion is the ultimately real.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

ugyen
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by ugyen » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:06 pm

i have been always glad even to see a single word dzogchen anywhere and everywhere. dzogchen is the real motivation and inspiration to me but living in the country like Bhutan ofcourse have freedom to practise this teachings but real hard is we dont get any books and poems of dzogchen teachings. "gift of dharma excel all gift" said by released beings many times. so please if anyone can send me the root text of dzogchen semdhi teachings called "KUNJE GYALPO" in my email- "ugyent04@gmail.com" i will be very much grateful. please do share me

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:08 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Illusion is the ultimately real.
:applause:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

krodha
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by krodha » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:28 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Illusion is the ultimately real.
"Ultimately real" and illusion are the antithesis of one another.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:57 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Illusion is the ultimately real.
:applause:
Maybe Nature is the ultimate real?
The best meditation is no meditation

krodha
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by krodha » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:10 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:57 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Illusion is the ultimately real.
:applause:
Maybe Nature is the ultimate real?
Something "real" would be substantial in nature, meaning truly established as a concrete entity.

Illusions appear but are not established or substantial entities, therefore they are not "real."

Nothing is held to be real in the view of Dzogchen.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:37 pm

Form is emptiness
Emptiness is form. ?
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:14 pm


Krodha wrote:

Something "real" would be substantial in nature, meaning truly established as a concrete entity.

Illusions appear but are not established or substantial entities, therefore they are not "real."

Nothing is held to be real in the view of Dzogchen.
===================

Real was meant here as an answer to something which we also can left aside then we get
Nature is the ultimate , maybe better said.

Guess illusions are inherent connected to Nature but are empty (in Nature)
So Nature has some "real" characteristics.

The view of Dzogchen has sure "real" views and some wrong ones like:

Now, while you are meditating, if you think something and
focus to the object side, then that is Thagpar Tawa, Eternalism.
---------
If you think that the mind and Nature do not exist, then that is
Cheta, the View of Nihilism.
---------
If you just focus and think whether something exists or
something doesn't exist, then that is Lungma Tenpa, Neutral View
where there are neither virtues nor negativities.
---------
If you use mantras or think when you are meditating, then that
is Zulum, your own view - it is not according to Dzogchen.

In "real" Nature, there is no focusing nor does it use consciousness or speech.
Here you can see, we use again the word "real".


There are more wrong views possible for a Dzogchenpa.


But what is real in Dzogchen if everything comes out of Emptiness and then later is seen as real ?
Guess if we see it as "real", / frozen, then this is illusion.
But according Nature, it has no names etc.
The best meditation is no meditation

krodha
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by krodha » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:25 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:14 pm

Krodha wrote:

Something "real" would be substantial in nature, meaning truly established as a concrete entity.

Illusions appear but are not established or substantial entities, therefore they are not "real."

Nothing is held to be real in the view of Dzogchen.
===================

Real was meant here as an answer to something which we also can left aside then we get
Nature is the ultimate , maybe better said.

Guess illusions are inherent connected to Nature but are empty (in Nature)
So Nature has some "real" characteristics.

The view of Dzogchen has sure "real" views and some wrong ones like:

Now, while you are meditating, if you think something and
focus to the object side, then that is Thagpar Tawa, Eternalism.
---------
If you think that the mind and Nature do not exist, then that is
Cheta, the View of Nihilism.
---------
If you just focus and think whether something exists or
something doesn't exist, then that is Lungma Tenpa, Neutral View
where there are neither virtues nor negativities.
---------
If you use mantras or think when you are meditating, then that
is Zulum, your own view - it is not according to Dzogchen.

In "real" Nature, there is no focusing nor does it use consciousness or speech.
Here you can see, we use again the word "real".


There are more wrong views possible for a Dzogchenpa.
The term "real" can be used in many contexts, but referring to your nature as your "real nature" is just a way of communicating that your nature is the actual condition of your mind that you are meant to recognize.

"Real nature" in that context does not mean your nature is substantial or established.

This is a semantic issue.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm

krodha wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:25 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:14 pm

Krodha wrote:

Something "real" would be substantial in nature, meaning truly established as a concrete entity.

Illusions appear but are not established or substantial entities, therefore they are not "real."

Nothing is held to be real in the view of Dzogchen.
===================

Real was meant here as an answer to something which we also can left aside then we get
Nature is the ultimate , maybe better said.

Guess illusions are inherent connected to Nature but are empty (in Nature)
So Nature has some "real" characteristics.

The view of Dzogchen has sure "real" views and some wrong ones like:

Now, while you are meditating, if you think something and
focus to the object side, then that is Thagpar Tawa, Eternalism.
---------
If you think that the mind and Nature do not exist, then that is
Cheta, the View of Nihilism.
---------
If you just focus and think whether something exists or
something doesn't exist, then that is Lungma Tenpa, Neutral View
where there are neither virtues nor negativities.
---------
If you use mantras or think when you are meditating, then that
is Zulum, your own view - it is not according to Dzogchen.

In "real" Nature, there is no focusing nor does it use consciousness or speech.
Here you can see, we use again the word "real".


There are more wrong views possible for a Dzogchenpa.
The term "real" can be used in many contexts, but referring to your nature as your "real nature" is just a way of communicating that your nature is the actual condition of your mind that you are meant to recognize.

"Real nature" in that context does not mean your nature is substantial or established.

This is a semantic issue.
Well, we all have a personal "real" Nature, which clearly differs from another one`s Nature which can be proved by the different kind of Dzogchen Thögal visions.

But also Buddha hood is individual or substantial and different from another("ones") Buddha (hood) but one thing is sure they all are / dwell in Nature.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:06 pm

krodha wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Illusion is the ultimately real.
"Ultimately real" and illusion are the antithesis of one another.

Only true when illusion is not seen as illusion, and is taken as real, which i'm guessing is why there is an aspiration prayer saying this very thing (recognizing illusion as the ultimately real), btdubs, ain't just my words.

I also think it's hard to say there is an "antithesis" of the ultimately real, which is more directly rendered simply as the Dharmadhatu in another version of the aspiration i'm thinking of.

But ya know, always gotta strive to be a competent rhetorician I guess :shrug:
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-Jeff H.

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Vasana
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:58 pm

The eight similes of illusion are found in Sutra through Dzogchen although the technical terminology and path is obviously different. Mode of appearance vs mode of being. Check the Prajnaparamita sutras and any that mention illusion, dependent origination, reflection of a moon in a pool of water etc. Longchenpa also speaks on illusion in depth.

As in a dream, all the external objects perceived with the five senses are not there, but appear through delusion.
As in a magic show, things are made to appear by a temporary conjunction of causes, circumstances and connections.
As in a visual aberration, things appear to be there, yet there is nothing.
As in a mirage, things appear but are not real.
As in an echo, things can be perceived but there is nothing there, either outside or inside.
As in a city of gandharvas, there is neither a dwelling nor anyone to dwell.
As in a reflection, things appear but have no reality of their own.
As in a city created by magic, there are all sorts of appearances but they are not really there


http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... f_illusion
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:34 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:58 pm
The eight similes of illusion are found in Sutra through Dzogchen although the technical terminology and path is obviously different. Mode of appearance vs mode of being. Check the Prajnaparamita sutras and any that mention illusion, dependent origination, reflection of a moon in a pool of water etc. Longchenpa also speaks on illusion in depth.

As in a dream, all the external objects perceived with the five senses are not there, but appear through delusion.
As in a magic show, things are made to appear by a temporary conjunction of causes, circumstances and connections.
As in a visual aberration, things appear to be there, yet there is nothing.
As in a mirage, things appear but are not real.
As in an echo, things can be perceived but there is nothing there, either outside or inside.
As in a city of gandharvas, there is neither a dwelling nor anyone to dwell.
As in a reflection, things appear but have no reality of their own.
As in a city created by magic, there are all sorts of appearances but they are not really there


http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... f_illusion
Thanks for your contribution V,

If we deal with subject/self / ego and object, it will be illusion
If we don´t, then it is pure.
Understanding emptiness in the Dzogchen way or the mode of presence differs indeed from appearances / objects.
Integration into purity (of objects), that is only possible for qualified Dzogchenpas
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Way-Fun » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:17 pm

The 'seeing' (appearance) and the 'being' (reality) are not separate things that could ever truly oppose one another. This immediate appearance is not other than its empty nature. Yet, by conceiving of these in opposition, an appearance of things in opposition harmoniously appears. Clearly seeing (realizing) the reality of seeing-things-as-they-are-not (illusion), as it is, is seeing things as they are.

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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:09 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:57 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Illusion is the ultimately real.
:applause:
Maybe Nature is the ultimate real?

If EVERYTHING comes from ONE thing
How can there be anything separate. ?

I know I'd like to think of the NATURAL THINGS OF NATURE ( like trees, water, etc) , as being separate from pollution like plastic.....but where does plastic come from ? Everything on this planet is of this planet....even if it came from Mars....everything in the Universe came from the same source....
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:16 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:34 am
Integration into purity (of objects), that is only possible for qualified Dzogchenpas
I don't think i am a qualified Dzogchenpa,
But I can imagine this integration.
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:15 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:09 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:57 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:08 pm


:applause:
Maybe Nature is the ultimate real?

If EVERYTHING comes from ONE thing
How can there be anything separate. ?
The power of creation (Tsal) is never ending, so the creations out of Nature.

I know I'd like to think of the NATURAL THINGS OF NATURE ( like trees, water, etc) , as being separate from pollution like plastic.....but where does plastic come from ? Everything on this planet is of this planet....even if it came from Mars....everything in the Universe came from the same source....
We call that one source Nature in Dzogchen.
The best meditation is no meditation

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