Illusion in Dzogchen

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:01 pm

Joseph wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:34 pm
the book Shine and lhagtong

:shrug:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... 20a&page=8

Is this another restricted book ?
That's another issue that seems to restrict my progress....
Good thing i have a lot of patients & my internal since of time is limitless (or very slow ?)...maybe that's why i'm so slow in getting this all down..

:shrug:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Vasana
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:05 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:01 pm
Joseph wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:34 pm
the book Shine and lhagtong

:shrug:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... 20a&page=8

Is this another restricted book ?
That's another issue that seems to restrict my progress....
Good thing i have a lot of patients & my internal since of time is limitless (or very slow ?)...maybe that's why i'm so slow in getting this all down..

:shrug:
If you have direct introduction from Rinpoche, you can purchase that Shiné and Lhagtong text.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:20 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:45 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:06 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:00 am
If you are serious Dzogchenpa, you will be helped in your search for Dzogchen by other Dzogchenpas here aboard, no doubt about it.
How can i know if i'm serious ?
Can you ask me some questions ?


All i know is that all my life i've been driven by something to find THE TRUTH....
I studied Buddhism since 1996 & have a teacher (since 2003) (he's also from Mustang, Nepal)
I read some Dzogchen & loved Longchenpa
I attended a webcast of ChNN, (DI) Direct Introduction/Pointing Out...
I don't know if i "got it" (sometimes i think i did, but nothing different occurred at the time, that's why i'm not sure)
i got a few Dzogchen books the past year....i haven't finished reading them yet...


I have a LOT of distractions....I waste a LOT of time....
In my heart i want to do the right thing...but i feel so overwhelmed i don't know how to start Dzogchen :rolleye:
Malcolm suggested, i start with Ngondro...so far i did ONE full prostration (when my teacher came to visit me about a month ago)
I LOVE learning...I wish i could go away and learn without all my distractions...but if i went to India i'm afraid i would suffer too much with all the bugs & heat....

Learning another language is VERY difficult for me....no way could i learn Tibetan....

I wish when i died i could have a Rainbow Body.....i am really repulsed of having to go any other way... :crying:

Do you think i'm a good candidate to be a serious Dzogchen practitioner ?



Thank You :heart:
Tashi delek K.L.,

Thanks for your reply.

Finding the truth is an individual task and based on insight into ones abilities.

See you are on the good way to get emancipated and you have a Teacher.
If you understand basic Dzogchen and want to practice it, then you need the introduction into your Mind from your Master.

- Guess you are in a Dzogchen Tradition ?

So if you can practice Trekchöd, then it will help you te reduce distractions and to get fixed into the saddle.

But you by yourself must have the firm decision, to go for:'

- Study
- Your Guru
- Introduction in one´s Natural State
- preparations
- Practice of Trekchöd and Thögal

- Are you motivated ?

Guess you are in a Dzogchen Tradition ?

My teacher is Sakyapa...but he comes from Mustang, Nepal ( a very Bon area ?)
So no....not in the traditional sense of having a Bon teacher, like you..
I've never discussed Bon with him either...would he qualify as being able to give me D.I , anyways ????

if you can practice Trekchöd, then it will help you te reduce distractions and to get fixed into the saddle.
Do i need a lung or blessings first ?


Study
- Your Guru
- Introduction in one´s Natural State
- preparations
- Practice of Trekchöd and Thögal

- Are you motivated ?

I want to do all these things...but i always let distractions prevent me from 100% effort :crying:

I work 40 hours a week
I'm exhausted when i get home
I could start doing more on weekends instead of goofing off with other things....I will try this weekend... :crying:

I'm so sorry for hijacking this thread... :emb:


Thank you for your guidance :heart:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:22 pm

Vasana wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:05 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:01 pm
Joseph wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:34 pm
the book Shine and lhagtong

:shrug:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... 20a&page=8

Is this another restricted book ?
That's another issue that seems to restrict my progress....
Good thing i have a lot of patients & my internal since of time is limitless (or very slow ?)...maybe that's why i'm so slow in getting this all down..

:shrug:
If you have direct introduction from Rinpoche, you can purchase that Shiné and Lhagtong text.


Yeah, but the problem is ...i don't know if i "Got It " :shrug:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Josef
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Josef » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:47 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:22 pm
Vasana wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:05 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:01 pm



:shrug:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... 20a&page=8

Is this another restricted book ?
That's another issue that seems to restrict my progress....
Good thing i have a lot of patients & my internal since of time is limitless (or very slow ?)...maybe that's why i'm so slow in getting this all down..

:shrug:
If you have direct introduction from Rinpoche, you can purchase that Shiné and Lhagtong text.

Yeah, but the problem is ...i don't know if i "Got It " :shrug:
If he gave it and you were there or via webcast it counts.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:08 pm

Josef wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:47 pm
f he gave it and you were there or via webcast it counts.
Ok...but do you ALSO need the TRANSMISSION (Lung) to read the book ?? :roll eye:

I found this too :

https://www.dzogchen.org.au/faq.html
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:55 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
My teacher is Sakyapa...but he comes from Mustang, Nepal ( a very Bon area ?)
So no....not in the traditional sense of having a Bon teacher, like you..
I've never discussed Bon with him either...would he qualify as being able to give me D.I , anyways ????


I want to do all these things...but i always let distractions prevent me from 100% effort :crying:

I work 40 hours a week
I'm exhausted when i get home
I could start doing more on weekends instead of goofing off with other things....I will try this weekend... :crying:

I'm so sorry for hijacking this thread... :emb:


Thank you for your guidance :heart:
Yeh great that you have a teacher, but i don´t know if this Master can give you Dzogchen teachings.
In Mustang are indeed also Bönpos as well the other 4 Tibetan Traditions living. We know there Nyingma-Bön weddings, very normal there.
If it is your Master then ask him for some advice. He also can help you further on your path in the Dharma.
He can advise you also, a competent and qualified Dzogchen Master.
But you are also free to look for other options like adviced here aboard.

We all have limited time for doing our practice, so we have to be smart with our time schedule.
If we would get up 1 hour earlier every day, then you could use this hour for Dharma practice.

Personal would i advice you to start in the morning with some Chi exercises (Tsalung Trulkor / Tib.Yoga etc.) combined with Meditation on one object.
30 and 30 minutes only.

As 1 object you could use the Tibetan letter A in front of you, 1,50 meter.
Technic is looking only undistracted at the A without looking to something else and thinking on something else.

This of course is based on discipline and daily practice.

If you would start with these simple and easy things you have created for yourself a certain basis and can watch your results.
But you have to spent something not money, but time and if it is ok for you then you will be motivated to start with practice.

With the practice you can feel emancipation, text confuses sometimes and some are better fit for yoga and meditation then for studying.
Maybe you belong to the latter category.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Josef
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Josef » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:29 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:08 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:47 pm
f he gave it and you were there or via webcast it counts.
Ok...but do you ALSO need the TRANSMISSION (Lung) to read the book ?? :roll eye:

I found this too :

https://www.dzogchen.org.au/faq.html
Introduction is sufficient for that particular book.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:42 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:29 pm
Introduction is sufficient for that particular book.
Nope..you need D.I. & Transmission :
Conditions of Use
I hereby certify that when buying any RESTRICTED item(s) I have received Direct Introduction from Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, have received the specific lung transmission for any practice materials including mantras, and have attended the retreat (either by webcast or in person) for any retreat mp3 I am purchasing.

(PLEASE NOTE: we reserve the right to cancel and refund any order that does not follow these guidelines)

:crying:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Ogyen
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Ogyen » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:32 am

If you've attended a webcast with explanation and then transmission you should be good. Did you not receive one of those?
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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:39 am

Ogyen wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:32 am
If you've attended a webcast with explanation and then transmission you should be good. Did you not receive one of those?

I thought it had to be specifically for the book ( Shine And Lhagtong )

:rolleye:

This kinda stuff (although i have a lot of patience), is what sets me back...until i'm ready to try again....anyways...i have a few books to start reading this weekend...until i get this one figured out....
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Josef
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Josef » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:36 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:42 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:29 pm
Introduction is sufficient for that particular book.
Nope..you need D.I. & Transmission :
Conditions of Use
I hereby certify that when buying any RESTRICTED item(s) I have received Direct Introduction from Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, have received the specific lung transmission for any practice materials including mantras, and have attended the retreat (either by webcast or in person) for any retreat mp3 I am purchasing.

(PLEASE NOTE: we reserve the right to cancel and refund any order that does not follow these guidelines)

:crying:
That’s a basic description of restrictions.
DI is all one needs for the Shine and Lhagtong book and many others.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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ratna
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by ratna » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:56 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:42 am
Nope..you need D.I. & Transmission :
It says: "...have received the specific lung transmission for any practice materials including mantras." This book doesn't include mantras. If you have D.I., you're good to go. If in doubt, e-mail them and ask.

R

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Vasana
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:56 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:39 am
Ogyen wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:32 am
If you've attended a webcast with explanation and then transmission you should be good. Did you not receive one of those?

I thought it had to be specifically for the book ( Shine And Lhagtong )

:rolleye:

This kinda stuff (although i have a lot of patience), is what sets me back...until i'm ready to try again....anyways...i have a few books to start reading this weekend...until i get this one figured out....
There's not much to figure out, it seems. You are able to purchase that book. It will provide you with a very clear understanding of how to bring whatever familiarity you already have with shamatha and vippassana on to the Dzogchen path. Even if you don't think you 'got it' this book will help you discover precisely what methods to apply until you 'get it' - until you can have confidence in distinguishing mind from the nature of mind and discover how to align your practices towards that . So if you want to 'get it', then the only geting to do is the getting of the teachings in that book! If you don't mind e-books you can purchase a digital copy much sooner.

There are other books you can purchase too but I think for now this particular book is very straight forward and clear. In the future, you can also email them to see what other books you can read with the D.I alone but maybe by then Rinpoche will have given some more rlungs.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

oldbob
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by oldbob » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:51 pm

:namaste:

:good: :good: :good:

and

Going back to the question of Illusion in Dzogchen the original poster asked:

"Am interested about:

- Your reasoning and your vision about illusion.
- In how far do you see illusion as "realistic"?"

I don't have any credentials in Dzogchen but I can say what works for me - 53 years after entering the golden temple of Lord Buddha in Freewood Acres, NJ.

It is (permanence), it isn't (nihilism), neither, or both, are the 4 philosophical strayings.

If you need a philosophical base to hang your consciousness on, then accepting the 4 strayings works to quickly end the need for further thought (explanations). If ever you are claiming one of these 4 positions, you are straying from the truth (what works to rest your mind) and you may get a philosophical headache because there are no end to lengthy explanations justifying one position or another. Far easier to me (a tired old guy) just to lump these 4 views together and go back to sleep (contemplation). :meditate:

Tsel dang and rolpa, the three ways that things can appear to the consciousness, are a more experiential explanation.

If you search on tsel dang rolpa (above) you may find some helpful explanations. If you allow "energy" to equate to "how things appear to consciousness" the meaning of the three examples becomes clearer.

and

viewtopic.php?t=12732&start=20#p167004

also if you search the web:

http://b9hummingbirdhovering.blogspot.c ... ument.html

No end to words (thought forms) - no end to the arising of pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising words.

So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by, informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:

and

All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:

and

Now you understand why "neither" and "both" are also necessary and completely correct when flavored by - informed by non-dual contemplation.

:meditate:

:heart:

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:39 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:14 pm
Tashi delek,

Am interested about:

- Your reasoning and your vision about illusion.
- In how far do you see illusion as "realistic"?

Best wishes

I have a very good imagination...
I imagined i ordered that book this morning...
thanks to all my imaginary friends.. :heart:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:01 pm

oldbob wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:51 pm


No end to words (thought forms) - no end to the arising of pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising words.

So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by, informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:

and

All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:

and

Now you understand why "neither" and "both" are also necessary and completely correct when flavored by - informed by non-dual contemplation.
Tashi delek Old Bob,

Long time ago, how are you doing ?

Thanks for your contribution.

So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by, informed by, non-dual contemplation.
So all words are permanent - not illusion - if flavored by dual contemplation

All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation. :meditate:
All words are empty - total illusion - if flavored by - informed by, non-dual contemplation.

The last example shows the finally correct vision about illusion imo., because it shows that in non-dual Dzogchen practice objects are seen as empty.
That empty realization = Experiencing visions as empty = illusion

Now is illusion a word which has a certain meaning here.....
I would replace illusion here with reality, what do you think ?
The best meditation is no meditation

Lukeinaz
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by Lukeinaz » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:56 pm

Is it possible to see or experience anything that is not illusion?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:03 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:56 pm
Is it possible to see or experience anything that is not illusion?
Yes in our State of dualism.
The best meditation is no meditation

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Illusion in Dzogchen

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:56 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:56 pm
Is it possible to see or experience anything that is not illusion?
Usually, objects of awareness are illusion.
But awareness itself cannot be refuted.
Even if you argue, "all of this might simply be a dream"
there is awareness of that.
Thus, when, by practice, you are aware of awareness itself,
awareness becomes the object of awareness,
arising as both subject and object simultaneously,
going beyond dualism.
That's not illusion.
.
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