Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

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emaho
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Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 1:07 am

There's a quote by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche that I've come across a couple of times, could somebody tell me where it's from?
“Most Westerners receive a Christian education and in the Christian tradition God is very diffused. God is recognized as something outside. They don’t know that God is in our real nature. If you have that knowledge and you are reading the bible, you can see there are many words that indicate God means our real nature. But then it developed in a more dualistic way. When they started to say, “the unique God governing all universe”, then it became easy to think God is governing everything. But it does not correspond in the real condition. So it is very important when you follow the Dzogchen Teachings, that you really understand what God means. It is not necessary to wonder if God exists or not. Some people are worried there is no God in Buddhism. In Buddhism there are so many kinds of gods, but Buddhists do not speak of the unique God. The essence of Buddhist teaching is Dzogchen, which is the final teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni. Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.”
Thanks!
Last edited by emaho on Sun May 13, 2018 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun May 13, 2018 1:33 am

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 1:42 am

Great, thank you! :anjali:
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sun May 13, 2018 8:27 am

This quote stretches the upaya aspect too far, imo.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Sun May 13, 2018 9:42 am

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:27 am
This quote stretches the upaya aspect too far, imo.
It does not make any reference to or imply that the christian teachings are upaya. It just explains how someone with knowledge or someone practicing Dzogchen can understand the christian concept of god.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:42 am
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:27 am
This quote stretches the upaya aspect too far, imo.
It does not make any reference to or imply that the christian teachings are upaya. It just explains how someone with knowledge or someone practicing Dzogchen can understand the christian concept of god.
Remains the problem that Rinpoche's understanding of god has little to do with the christian concept of god.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Sun May 13, 2018 1:18 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:42 am
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:27 am
This quote stretches the upaya aspect too far, imo.
It does not make any reference to or imply that the christian teachings are upaya. It just explains how someone with knowledge or someone practicing Dzogchen can understand the christian concept of god.
Remains the problem that Rinpoche's understanding of god has little to do with the christian concept of god.
But he is not talking about the christian understanding of god. He says that their understanding is wrong in the quote above:
When they started to say, “the unique God governing all universe”, then it became easy to think God is governing everything. But it does not correspond in the real condition.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 2:54 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm
Remains the problem that Rinpoche's understanding of god has little to do with the christian concept of god.
It has, if you read e.g. Nicolaus Cusanus, Meister Eckhardt, St. Augustin or Tillich.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun May 13, 2018 2:54 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:42 am
Great, thank you! :anjali:

No problem, dudine.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm

:rolling:
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 3:51 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:54 pm
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm
Remains the problem that Rinpoche's understanding of god has little to do with the christian concept of god.
It has, if you read e.g. Nicolaus Cusanus, Meister Eckhardt, St. Augustin or Tillich.
...or watch this, for instance:



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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun May 13, 2018 4:25 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:54 pm
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm
Remains the problem that Rinpoche's understanding of god has little to do with the christian concept of god.
It has, if you read e.g. Nicolaus Cusanus, Meister Eckhardt, St. Augustin or Tillich.
Or St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, and even such heterodoxy-averse mystics as Tauler. A theologian friend of mine insists that even Aquinas does not exactly embrace the reified/personalised notions of the divine, and I have heard Terry Eagleton make a similar point.

Here's Terry on the Ditchkins crowd:

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 4:48 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:25 pm
...A theologian friend of mine insists that even Aquinas does not exactly embrace the reified/personalised notions of the divine...
Oops, sorry, I just noticed I wrote Augustin, actually I meant Aquinas, Bishop Barron quotes him quite often in this context.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sun May 13, 2018 4:55 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:54 pm
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm
Remains the problem that Rinpoche's understanding of god has little to do with the christian concept of god.
It has, if you read e.g. Nicolaus Cusanus, Meister Eckhardt, St. Augustin or Tillich.
I'll wether stick to Bonhöffer or Rahner when it comes to christian understanding of god. I mean you also don't think that Steve Batchelor has a better unterstanding of Buddhadharma than let's say Dudjom Rinpoche, do you?

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm

Not sure if I'm getting your point here, Karma_Yeshe. What I said was that some, or actually quite a few Christian Theologians have an understanding of God that is compatible with Buddhist teachings about the alaya / kun gzhi. If you say that some others don't, OK, it doesn't really contradict me, does it? And if you're implying their view isn't relevant, yeah well, that's your opinion. Comparing them to Stephen Batchelor is just polemics, not an argument.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 5:58 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:25 pm
Here's Terry on the Ditchkins crowd
Watching it right nor, excellent talk, thanks for the link!
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 13, 2018 6:08 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm
Not sure if I'm getting your point here, Karma_Yeshe. What I said was that some, or actually quite a few Christian Theologians have an understanding of God that is compatible with Buddhist teachings about the alaya / kun gzhi. If you say that some others don't, OK, it doesn't really contradict me, does it? And if you're implying their view isn't relevant, yeah well, that's your opinion. Comparing them to Stephen Batchelor is just polemics, not an argument.
With respect to Dzogchen, the alaya is the fundamental ignorance. Otherwise, the alaya is not a transpwrsonal consciousness, it is personal. There is no xtian theology that is compatible with Buddha’s teaching.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 6:13 pm

God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.
What is ChNN referring to with "base" here? I mean, which Tibetan term corresponds to it?
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sun May 13, 2018 6:18 pm

I always believed in God...
Then i went through a stage when i hated him,
and thought "how could there be a God, when all these horrific things happen to his children....what kind of God is he ??????"

Then i saw that i had no concept of God....
But i knew that whatever THIS was it had to be IT.

And to me it fits in perfectly with Emptiness...

But sometimes i get mixed up and think Extraterrestrials have something to do with our creation...
And i think religion is how they brainwash us....

We have no control over our minds...they can control us, and make us think whatever THEY want....
They can even manipulate phenomena...just like yogis that have that power......

All this can literally drive one crazy....

No ground to stand on....

Making : "I Don't Know " the only thing you can really know...
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 13, 2018 6:22 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:13 pm
God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.
What is ChNN referring to with "base" here? I mean, which Tibetan term corresponds to it?
Gzhi, not kun gzhi.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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