Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

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Virgo
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Fri May 25, 2018 3:41 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
To have aversions towards other belief systems and disparage them is also against Buddhadharma & Dzogchen.
In what way?? Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
Right, it's imperative that we understand these distinctions. It doesn't mean that we have to be unkind to Christians when we interact with them.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri May 25, 2018 4:03 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
If you're a Dzogchen practioner or Buddhist, there should be no need .

If you're a Jew or Muslim, what good would it do ?

You know yourself, to have aversions is incompatible with Dzogchen view.

I can't remember which texts I read this in.
But i will try to do some digging this weekend
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri May 25, 2018 4:12 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
To have aversions towards other belief systems and disparage them is also against Buddhadharma & Dzogchen.
In what way?? Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
No clue. But I have heard it, often very strongly stated, from every single Vajrayana teacher I have received teachings from. ChNN was particularly adamant here. More than once, too.

Garchen Rinpoche says that disparaging non-Buddhist traditions is just as pernicious as disparaging a Buddhist vessel.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2018 4:15 pm

You speak with a forked tongue.
Spelare wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:34 pm
This is predicted on your mistaken assumption that Buddhist and nonbuddhist traditions aim to climb the same mountain — that's why kyle termed you a perennialist
I was tweaking the classic "paths up the mountain" image in a somewhat subversive way, not endorsing it as it is commonly understood. The mountain I repurposed to refer to the existential situation we discover ourselves and the rest of humanity to share. Some traditions have well-tested maps and guidebooks. A live guide is better if you can find one you trust. But some traditions (or pseudo-traditions) may be so confused as to invert the picture and think they're in a valley instead of on a mountain! Perhaps you, too, have met people trying to go down into a valley that is actually a mountain. They're strangely common.
PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:37 am
And you should talk to some professional chefs. Their training involves spending an enormous amount of time doing menial tasks exactly to instructions.
I have spoken to professional chefs. But the thing is, not everyone has to train to be a professional. Most of us just need to know how to cook for the nourishment of ourselves and whatever guests come our way. For that, sometimes it's better to learn from someone who has an intimate intuitive mastery of the subject but isn't necessarily part of a formal training program. We don't all have to attend the Cordon Bleu.
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-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Fri May 25, 2018 4:18 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:12 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
To have aversions towards other belief systems and disparage them is also against Buddhadharma & Dzogchen.
In what way?? Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
No clue. But I have heard it, often very strongly stated, from every single Vajrayana teacher I have received teachings from. ChNN was particularly adamant here. More than once, too.

Garchen Rinpoche says that disparaging non-Buddhist traditions is just as pernicious as disparaging a Buddhist vessel.
Disparaging refers to pointing out the faults of these religions to their followers, being contemptuous or offensive. It does not mean one should not see their errors. In this case even bringing up disparaging other religions is completely out of place as this is a Buddhist forum.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri May 25, 2018 4:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:15 pm
You speak with a forked tongue.
:lol:
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Fri May 25, 2018 4:20 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:03 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
If you're a Dzogchen practioner or Buddhist, there should be no need .
Yes, there should be no need but apparently there is a need, judging by this thread.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri May 25, 2018 4:25 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:18 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:12 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm


In what way?? Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
No clue. But I have heard it, often very strongly stated, from every single Vajrayana teacher I have received teachings from. ChNN was particularly adamant here. More than once, too.

Garchen Rinpoche says that disparaging non-Buddhist traditions is just as pernicious as disparaging a Buddhist vessel.
Disparaging refers to pointing out the faults of these religions to their followers, being contemptuous or offensive. It does not mean one should not see their errors. In this case even bringing up disparaging other religions is completely out of place as this is a Buddhist forum.
Actually, what I have heard directly contradicted your reading. Garchen was very clear about it, and he was not the only one.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Fri May 25, 2018 4:26 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:25 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:18 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:12 pm


No clue. But I have heard it, often very strongly stated, from every single Vajrayana teacher I have received teachings from. ChNN was particularly adamant here. More than once, too.

Garchen Rinpoche says that disparaging non-Buddhist traditions is just as pernicious as disparaging a Buddhist vessel.
Disparaging refers to pointing out the faults of these religions to their followers, being contemptuous or offensive. It does not mean one should not see their errors. In this case even bringing up disparaging other religions is completely out of place as this is a Buddhist forum.
Actually, what I have heard directly contradicted your reading. Garchen was very clear about it, and he was not the only one.
Then why is ChNNR 'disparaging' these views in The Precious Vase?

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri May 25, 2018 4:32 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:20 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:03 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
If you're a Dzogchen practioner or Buddhist, there should be no need .
Yes, there should be no need but apparently there is a need, judging by this thread.
Since there are no Christians (or whatever)speaking on this thread...I'm sure there are some out there listening. ...i always feel the need to defend them....so my introspectives were from my own experience from my own involvement with other religions in my past.....having compassion. ...because i have been there, and KNOW wholeheartedly what it's like to belive in A CREATOR GOD.

And then to discover Buddhism, after I figure out how there can be no creator god, as I once believed.....and embrace Buddhism because I finally found the truth i was looking for....and it stuck with me the longest ...and now onto Dzogchen. ......
Last edited by Kunga Lhadzom on Fri May 25, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Fri May 25, 2018 4:36 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:32 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:20 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:03 pm


If you're a Dzogchen practioner or Buddhist, there should be no need .
Yes, there should be no need but apparently there is a need, judging by this thread.
Since there are no Christians (or whatever)speaking on this thread...I'm sure there are some out there listening. ...i always feel the need to defend them....so my introspectives were from my own experience from my own involvement with other religions in my past.....having compassion. ...because i have been there, and KNOW wholeheartedly what it's like to belive in A CREATOR GOD.
I don't think anyone is attacking Christians here.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri May 25, 2018 4:45 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:36 pm
don't think anyone is attacking Christians here
Well ...attacking a Creator God ...or that belief system.....
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Fri May 25, 2018 4:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:15 pm
You speak with a forked tongue.
Hey, I've seen those old cowboy-and-Indian movies, too, you know!

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:26 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:25 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:18 pm


Disparaging refers to pointing out the faults of these religions to their followers, being contemptuous or offensive. It does not mean one should not see their errors. In this case even bringing up disparaging other religions is completely out of place as this is a Buddhist forum.
Actually, what I have heard directly contradicted your reading. Garchen was very clear about it, and he was not the only one.
Then why is ChNNR 'disparaging' these views in The Precious Vase?


I suggest you talk to Elio or Jim about how to read and frame various passages of the PV (which, in any case, is a restricted text, and hence not to be discussed here.)
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Fri May 25, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Fri May 25, 2018 4:58 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:26 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:25 pm

Actually, what I have heard directly contradicted your reading. Garchen was very clear about it, and he was not the only one.
Then why is ChNNR 'disparaging' these views in The Precious Vase?


I suggest you talk to Elio or Jim about how to read and frame various passages of the PV
It seems pretty clear, especially when supported by similar passages in many other texts.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Fri May 25, 2018 5:11 pm

There are many other not restricted texts that discuss this matter in any case. If you are saying there is a secret way to interpret it where the meaning is reversed, I don't think this makes any sense.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Fri May 25, 2018 5:12 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:25 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:18 pm
Disparaging refers to pointing out the faults of these religions to their followers, being contemptuous or offensive. It does not mean one should not see their errors. In this case even bringing up disparaging other religions is completely out of place as this is a Buddhist forum.
Actually, what I have heard directly contradicted your reading. Garchen was very clear about it, and he was not the only one.
"Disparaging" would be gallivanting around openly declaring that followers of X religion or system are idiots, insulting said people to their face, telling others to shun them, etc.

Which is quite different than constructively comparing and contrasting systems so that one can better understand one's own.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri May 25, 2018 5:32 pm

krodha wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:12 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:25 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:18 pm
Disparaging refers to pointing out the faults of these religions to their followers, being contemptuous or offensive. It does not mean one should not see their errors. In this case even bringing up disparaging other religions is completely out of place as this is a Buddhist forum.
Actually, what I have heard directly contradicted your reading. Garchen was very clear about it, and he was not the only one.
"Disparaging" would be gallivanting around openly declaring that followers of X religion or system are idiots, insulting said people to their face, telling others to shun them, etc.

Which is quite different than constructively comparing and contrasting systems so that one can better understand one's own.

So, to take a concrete example, how would you characterize someone descrbing Christianity as having been a scourge in this world?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by monktastic » Fri May 25, 2018 5:35 pm

Spelare: For what it's worth, my own guru (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche) made it abundantly clear that the concept of God I learned from Vedanta is exactly the right way of looking at things (and the right direction in which to pray) -- as long as it's understood that this "God" is inside, not outside. Of course, that's also what my Vedanta guru taught me, but there was no reason to argue :).

Your mind is the progenitor of the apparent phenomenal realm. God is the creator of the universe. Your mind is God. All very roughly speaking, with the appropriate caveats of using literary devices, etc.

There are a million ways to misunderstand the whole thing. Adding "God" to the mix might make things worse for some people. For others, it's exactly the right medicine. But that's probably a discussion best left between student and guru.

:namaste:
Last edited by monktastic on Fri May 25, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by PeterC » Fri May 25, 2018 5:38 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:12 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
To have aversions towards other belief systems and disparage them is also against Buddhadharma & Dzogchen.
In what way?? Which text says that we should not point out the errors of tirthika dharmas?
No clue. But I have heard it, often very strongly stated, from every single Vajrayana teacher I have received teachings from. ChNN was particularly adamant here. More than once, too.

Garchen Rinpoche says that disparaging non-Buddhist traditions is just as pernicious as disparaging a Buddhist vessel.
But nobody on this thread was disparaging the views of tirthikas except insofar as to point out that they do not lead to liberation. That cannot be considered disparagement. If people were saying, “those idiot Christians who aren’t smart enough to understand the middle way” or something similar, then that would be disparagement. But nothing of the sort was being said, only that other religions hold views incompatible with that of the Dharma.

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