Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Locked
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6173
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri May 18, 2018 3:47 pm

krodha wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 am
smcj wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 am
There is actually no evidence for the historical personality, Jesus of Nazareth, apart from Christian sources.
Uh huh. And how many contemporaneous records do we have about Sakyamuni? Nāgārjuna? Padmasambhava? Milarepa?
Unlike Christianity, the integrity of the Buddhist teachings do not depend on the authenticity of these historical figures.

Indeed, as Malcolm's historicity is unassailable.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Fri May 18, 2018 9:52 pm

krodha wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:23 am
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 12:07 am
krodha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:31 am
Fictional characters are capable of many feats. I just saw a film recently where a raccoon flew a vessel through outer space.
Though his attainments can be debated, there is evidence of the historical Jesus apart from the numerous Christian sources.
There is actually no evidence for the historical personality, Jesus of Nazareth, apart from Christian sources.

In fact there were twenty plus historians who lived in the region where Jesus allegedly travelled around performing miracles, directly during the time he supposedly lived, and not one of them mention any miracle performer, prophet or son of god.
I just gave three sources that disprove your statement, but I don't wish to argue.

krodha
Posts: 2376
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:52 pm
I just gave three sources that disprove your statement, but I don't wish to argue.
My friend, there is no way you've "disproven" any assertions. You've only cited information you choose to consider valid.

There is alleged evidence both for and against the historical character, Jesus Christ. If forced to take a side I would align with the latter, but I have no vested interest in either side because the teachings of Jesus are wholly irrelevant to my life.

And that leads me to the main question: as a practitioner of the buddhadharma, why do you care?

emaho
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 am
Shame about the piggies however.
If you believe that Jesus is an enlightened being you will also have no problem to assume that he knew what he was doing when he exorcised the demons and drove them into the pigs, just like you trust that Tilopa knew what he was doing when he fried living fish on a grill. For instance Jesus might have been so nice to transfer the pigs' minds into a better rebirth or a pure land after they died. (And yes, he didn't teach that animals have Buddha nature, but maybe that was just because his addressees were not ripe for that teaching yet. Just as he didn't teach karma and reincarnation.)

Also, you will have no problem to believe that he'll be able to transfer you into a pure land when you pray to him in the bardo. Sorry, Malcolm, I really don't see what sense it makes to start some discussion about the question if this is called liberation or not. If one reaches liberation immediately in the bardo or later in the pure land really makes no difference here.

But of course, if you don't have that faith and assume that he was just another nutjob then this won't be convincing to you. And the conversation will go on and on in circles...

I think I'll go watch some squirrel videos on youtube instead...

"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27520
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm

emaho wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm

Also, you will have no problem to believe that he'll be able to transfer you into a pure land when you pray to him in the bardo. Sorry, Malcolm, I really don't see what sense it makes to start some discussion about the question if this is called liberation or not. If one reaches liberation immediately in the bardo or later in the pure land really makes no difference here.
Liberation is defined as being free from affliction. If one is afflicted, one is not liberated no matter what external conditions might prevail or what prayers one might recite.

No one can hand liberation to you. The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

emaho
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sat May 19, 2018 12:24 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm
The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.
???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:
We can pray to Amitabha Buddha or Avalokiteshvara to take us to the pure realms, so it is important at this time not to fall under the influence of the disturbing emotions.
same text, p.22:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Sat May 19, 2018 2:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm
No one can hand liberation to you. The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound? That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced? That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?

Suppose "you" then ask Him whether He himself really exists, and He confesses that He does not. That "He", too, is a dreamlike emanation whose role is to guide you to freedom from within your own mind, from which "He" has never been separate. Before "you" can raise a final objection on the basis of scriptural argumentation, "He" clarifies that "your mind" is also empty. Through this knowledge, "He" empowers "you" to free "others" from "their" own illusory predicaments.

All good, right?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27520
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2018 3:06 am

Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:32 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm
No one can hand liberation to you. The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound? That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced? That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?

Suppose "you" then ask Him whether He himself really exists, and He confesses that He does not. That "He", too, is a dreamlike emanation whose role is to guide you to freedom from within your own mind, from which "He" has never been separate. Before "you" can raise a final objection on the basis of scriptural argumentation, "He" clarifies that "your mind" is also empty. Through this knowledge, "He" empowers "you" to free "others" from "their" own illusory predicaments.

All good, right?
It is a good fantasy, but nothing more.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27520
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2018 3:10 am

emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:24 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm
The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.
???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:
We can pray to Amitabha Buddha or Avalokiteshvara to take us to the pure realms, so it is important at this time not to fall under the influence of the disturbing emotions.
same text, p.22:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?
Pretty clear here one is not being liberated by someone else
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

krodha
Posts: 2376
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Sat May 19, 2018 3:25 am

Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:32 am
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound? That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced? That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?
Hopefully "his" name is Papaji and "he's" teaching neo-Advaita replete with all the scare quotes over first, second and third person singular pronouns... because that is what it sounds like.

User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Sat May 19, 2018 3:54 am

krodha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:25 am
Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:32 am
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound? That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced? That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?
Hopefully "his" name is Papaji and "he's" teaching neo-Advaita replete with all the scare quotes over first, second and third person singular pronouns... because that is what it sounds like.
Did you notice that the quotation marks expand as the implications of emptiness are more and more fully realized? If you read the context, the conversation I butted into was about a hypothetical encounter with an apparition in the bardo to whom one prays for liberation.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27520
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2018 4:09 am

Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:54 am
krodha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:25 am
Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:32 am
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound? That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced? That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?
Hopefully "his" name is Papaji and "he's" teaching neo-Advaita replete with all the scare quotes over first, second and third person singular pronouns... because that is what it sounds like.
Did you notice that the quotation marks expand as the implications of emptiness are more and more fully realized? If you read the context, the conversation I butted into was about a hypothetical encounter with an apparition in the bardo to whom one prays for liberation.
That is just not how things work in the bardo.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

emaho
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sat May 19, 2018 4:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:10 am
emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:24 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm
The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.
???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:
We can pray to Amitabha Buddha or Avalokiteshvara to take us to the pure realms, so it is important at this time not to fall under the influence of the disturbing emotions.
same text, p.22:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?
Pretty clear here one is not being liberated by someone else
Good thing I haven't been speaking of liberation then, isn't it? Seriously, Malcolm, I've been intentionally avoiding this term the entire time.

What I did indeed say was:
emaho wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:38 pm
(...) Even supposing Jesus and his mom were emanations of Avalokiteśvara and Tārā, respectively, this does not mean that they were able to teach a liberative path in those forms. (...)
Except that if Jesus was an enlightened being then praying to him in the bardo will have exactly the same effect as praying to any other enlightened being in the bardo.

And later:
emaho wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm
Also, you will have no problem to believe that he'll be able to transfer you into a pure land when you pray to him in the bardo. Sorry, Malcolm, I really don't see what sense it makes to start some discussion about the question if this is called liberation or not. If one reaches liberation immediately in the bardo or later in the pure land really makes no difference here.
The reasons why I have avoided the word "liberation" is 1. because Jesus himself didn't speak of Liberation, he spoke of Salvation, and 2. if you're being led to a pure land by an enlightened being then that's where the actual liberation will take place some time later, the mere act of being led into the pure land is not yet liberation itself, but it will lead to your liberation. And I'm sure that I've heard lots of Buddhist teachings about the bardo where praying to an enlightened being in the bardo is referred to as a chance for liberation. So actually the Tibetan tradition isn't as nitpicky as you.

You, on the other hand just very clearly rejected the idea of being saved by another being as contradicting the Dharma. But if somebody leads you to a place where you will for sure reach enlightenment that pretty much counts as that being "saving you".
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27520
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2018 4:36 am

emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:30 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:10 am
emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:24 am


???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:



same text, p.22:



http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?
Pretty clear here one is not being liberated by someone else
Good thing I haven't been speaking of liberation then, isn't it? Seriously, Malcolm, I've been intentionally avoiding this term the entire time.

What I did indeed say was:
emaho wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:38 pm
(...) Even supposing Jesus and his mom were emanations of Avalokiteśvara and Tārā, respectively, this does not mean that they were able to teach a liberative path in those forms. (...)
Except that if Jesus was an enlightened being then praying to him in the bardo will have exactly the same effect as praying to any other enlightened being in the bardo.

And later:
emaho wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 pm
Also, you will have no problem to believe that he'll be able to transfer you into a pure land when you pray to him in the bardo. Sorry, Malcolm, I really don't see what sense it makes to start some discussion about the question if this is called liberation or not. If one reaches liberation immediately in the bardo or later in the pure land really makes no difference here.
The reasons why I have avoided the word "liberation" is 1. because Jesus himself didn't speak of Liberation, he spoke of Salvation, and 2. if you're being led to a pure land by an enlightened being then that's where the actual liberation will take place some time later, the mere act of being led into the pure land is not yet liberation itself, but it will lead to your liberation. And I'm sure that I've heard lots of Buddhist teachings about the bardo where praying to an enlightened being in the bardo is referred to as a chance for liberation. So actually the Tibetan tradition isn't as nitpicky as you.

You, on the other hand just very clearly rejected the idea of being saved by another being as contradicting the Dharma. But if somebody leads you to a place where you will for sure reach enlightenment that pretty much counts as that being "saving you".
The reason why the Tibetan tradition refers to practitioners of Buddhadharma as “insiders” is that there is no theory of salvation by an external savior in Buddhadharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Motova » Sat May 19, 2018 5:25 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:10 am
emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:24 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 pm
The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.
???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:
We can pray to Amitabha Buddha or Avalokiteshvara to take us to the pure realms, so it is important at this time not to fall under the influence of the disturbing emotions.
same text, p.22:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?
Pretty clear here one is not being liberated by someone else
What about phowa?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The American Colosseum

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sat May 19, 2018 5:42 am

Motova wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 5:25 am

What about phowa?
That's only going to a pure land, that is not being liberated.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheYoungTurks/videos
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainfor ... orestation
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGs4ZMOyq4

User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Sat May 19, 2018 11:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:09 am
That is just not how things work in the bardo.
Isn't one's experience of the bardo conditioned by culture and prior training or lack thereof? Since the overwhelming majority of accounts of the bardo are from Tibetan Buddhists (I'm guessing there are also Indian and Bön ones), is it implausible that Christian or other "outsider" accounts would diverge drastically? Wouldn't near-death experiences throughout history be explicable as bardo experiences?

One of the things that most appealed to me about Tibetan teachings concerning death was that they could account for the afterlife experiences of non-Buddhists, including Christian (i.e. Abrahamic) heaven and hell realm experiences, Hindu lokas, etc. Such experiences could be integrated into a teaching that placed liberation as a preferable outcome. In fact, I think I've heard lamas acknowledge the possibility.

User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Sat May 19, 2018 1:20 pm

So, to be clear, the party line is that every being who has ever been liberated has realized the Dzogchen view (which we could say = Prajñāpāramitā = Mahāmudrā, except in manner of presentation and practice; same result, except for the varieties of rainbow body)? And this regardless of the level of teachings attributed to them in the literature? So, if they did not teach that view, it was not that they did not realize it but that there was not yet a suitable place, retinue, and occasion?

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6173
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat May 19, 2018 2:29 pm

Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:20 pm
So, to be clear, the party line is that every being who has ever been liberated has realized the Dzogchen view (which we could say = Prajñāpāramitā = Mahāmudrā, except in manner of presentation and practice; same result, except for the varieties of rainbow body)? And this regardless of the level of teachings attributed to them in the literature? So, if they did not teach that view, it was not that they did not realize it but that there was not yet a suitable place, retinue, and occasion?


Well, "I" am not sure that there is any such "party line", but one thing "I" think "we" can all agree on is that "anyone" who uses a lot of scare quotes is definitely not "liberated".
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27520
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2018 4:07 pm

Spelare wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:26 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:09 am
That is just not how things work in the bardo.
Isn't one's experience of the bardo conditioned by culture and prior training or lack thereof?
First, we have to distinguish between the common bardo (antarabhāva) teaching found in Abhidharma, and so on, with the bardo presentation found exclusively in the Great Perfection Tantras of the Upadeśa class and their instructions.

Second, the question of near-death experiences will follow after that.

In all Buddhist traditions, the moment of the death ('chi kha) is a crucial point at which through recognizing the way the one's elements and so on dissolve into luminosity, there is an opportunity for one to recognize one's own state and wake up. All Tibetan Buddhist traditions recognize that this ends when the red and white bindu separate once the inner vāyu ceases in the body. After this is the so-called bardo of dharmatā, which is not a culturally conditioned experience in any way at all.

However, when someone has practiced the Zhitro mandala in this lifetime, it is possible for them to be guided through a process of reminding them of the significance of the experience of the bardo of dharmatā through the Shitro mandala, as in the Liberation through Hearing in the Bardo.

With respect to the first bardo, the bardo of the time of death, they are given instructions, whispered into their ear, from their guru or samaya sibling which helps them recognize the experiences they are undergoing -- this must be done after the outer vāyu (breath) ceases and before the inner vāyu ceases. It is best done immediately after the outer breath ceases.

If they do not wake up then, they can be reminded of the significance of the sounds, lights, and rays they experience during the the bardo of dharmatā case in terms of the peaceful and wrathful deities. However, practitioners of thögal will not require such a reminder, since such practitioners become familiar with and cultivate dharmatā in this lifetime, and in the bardo of dharmatā, are like children climbing into their mother's lap.

If the person fails to recognize the bardo of dharmatā, then there is the section for guiding rebirth in bardo of rebirth.

The reason that we have the Liberation through Hearing in the Bardo and other similar manuals is to provide instructions on these issues.

This is all predicated on the fact that at least for the first three weeks, or 21 days, after the bardo of death has finished, the bardo being has a mental body with all complete faculties and is capable of seeing relatives, family, and so on, once they have been reminded they are dead, they can still listen to teachings, and so on while in the bardo of rebirth until the 49th day, or after the end of their seventh bardo rebirth. However, the caveat is that it is generally only during the first three rebirths in the bardo that sentient beings still have body and memories of their previous existence. After the 21st day, they begin to fall under the strong traces that impel their next rebirth, and turn their attention to appropriating a new birth.

Since the overwhelming majority of accounts of the bardo are from Tibetan Buddhists (I'm guessing there are also Indian and Bön ones), is it implausible that Christian or other "outsider" accounts would diverge drastically? Wouldn't near-death experiences throughout history be explicable as bardo experiences?

One of the things that most appealed to me about Tibetan teachings concerning death was that they could account for the afterlife experiences of non-Buddhists, including Christian (i.e. Abrahamic) heaven and hell realm experiences, Hindu lokas, etc.
Buddhist teachings account for the death and afterlife experience of all sentient beings, since we are all composed of the five elements and consciousness. But it does not account for the death and afterlife experiences in the terms you imagine. For example, the teaching on the bardo of dharmatā is a unique feature of Dzogchen teachings. If you have never received teachings on it, you will never recognize the bardo of dharmatā since you will not have developed the proper corresponding meditative experience in this life to recognize it— it will flash by in an instant. In other schools such as Lamdre, they have different methods attaining liberation at the time of death and in the bardo, but they do not make a distinction of the bardo of dharmatā, let alone the four or six bardos we have in the Great Perfection teachings.

Hinduism, while eternalist, nevertheless shares with Buddhadharma the concept that liberation consist of being free from afflictions (which they term samskaras) and karma. However, since their view is based in the idea of the true existence of an ultimate self, their ultimate idea of liberation is very different from that of the Buddha. They do not have a concept of the antarabhāva, or bardo. Since they have an eternalist view of a self and what belongs to a self, they never eradicate all afflictions and thus are never truly liberated; and they never achieve omniscience.

The near-death experience Hindus, Christians, Muslims, etc. is what we consider "the moment of death experience." Why? Very simply put, the so-called near-death experiences of people are experiences where consciousness has not in fact left the body since the indestructible bindu in the heart center of the body has not separated into its white and red elements. That does not happen with the cessation of the outer vāyu (breath). That only happens with the cessation of the inner vāyu, and that generally requires three days.

What follows is a reasonably accurate presentation of the now standardized model of Hindu afterlife ideas:
According to the Hinduism, upon death, a soul or Self proceeds along one of the three paths suggested in the Vedas. As death nears and a person begins to lose consciousness, the Self gathers up the breaths (pranas) and the deities (devatas) hidden in the organs of the body, and enters into the heart (hridayam). From there, through an opening in the heart, it travels upwards along the channel of up breath (udana) and reaches the head.
There through an aperture in the top head, it escapes into the air or the mid-region called antrariksham (interstellar space). Breaths and the deities who accompany the Self return to their spheres in the macrocosm. As the body is cremated in the final sacrifice of life (antima kriya), the elements in the body (bhutas) return to the elements in the world.

From here on karma (net result of past actions) catches up. Liberated souls, or those who have burned their karmas and latent impressions, travel along a path called the northern path (uttarayana) and enter into a timeless eternal zone in the sphere of the sun. From there they are led by divine beings to the highest, immortal heaven of Brahman, known variously as Vaikuntha, Parandhama or Kailasa.

Those who are not liberated, but lived virtuous and dutiful lives according to the laws of God, go by another path called the southern path (daksinayana) to the ancestral world located in the sphere of the moon, where they stay until their karmas are exhausted.
Then they fall down to the earth through rains and enter into plants, from plants into food, either as plant food or animal food, and through food into semen and then through semen into the wombs where they are reborn again according to their previous actions.

Now there is a third path, the path to the hell in the subterranean worlds (adhogati) reserved for those who indulge in serious sins and demonic actions. Upon exhausting their karmas they are born as worms, insects and other low life forms.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/death.asp

On thing to keep in mind here, Hindus want to cremate the body within 24 hours of death. Buddhists consider this terrible, since according to Buddhadharma, it takes three days for the consciousness of a person to vacate their body. From our point of view, Hindus do not account for the inner breath upon the cessation of the outer breath. For them, once one stops breathing, one is dead. Their concept of rebirth too, while interesting, bears no relationship with the idea of rebirth or punarbhāva found in the Buddha's teachings, and certainly there is nothing like the antarabhāva, or period between lives.

Such experiences could be integrated into a teaching that placed liberation as a preferable outcome. In fact, I think I've heard lamas acknowledge the possibility.
As Āryadeva puts it, realization depends on view. Further, liberation depends on realization. Thus, if one's view is wrong, one realization will be faulty, and if one's realization is faulty, liberation is not a possibility in this life, the bardo, or the next, unless or until one meets the Dharma and discovers the right view by depending on a virtuous mentor.

Such lamas and teachers, are either naive, or in the attempt to be kind to those who come to Buddhadharma with strong clinging to their past religious upbringing, can actually do a disservice to their students by making such statements. The experience of the dissolution of the body that sentient beings have during the death process are generic, and the hallucinations that people have during this process are irrelevant to the process itself. See 226-234 of Gyurme Dorje's translation, The Tibetan Book of the Dead: the First Complete Translation.

For example, on page 233, for those people without a yidam, it says "Meditate on the Lord of Great Compassion," which any Tibetan will readily know how to do. But since Jesus, Mary, Krishna, Shiva, etc. are not buddhas, and are not connected to a Buddhist path through being defined as an excellent yidam, there is no ultimate benefit in telling people to focus on these religious figures during their death process, apart from giving them comfort. Giving a dying person comfort is a desiderata of course, but in this it is merely a palliative, and will at best lead them to rebirth again in the three higher realms. This is not a bad thing, but let us not kid ourselves into thinking such an experience "could be integrated into a teaching that placed liberation as a preferable outcome."

Even telling them to focus on an activity deity such as Jambhala is of no benefit, since these activity deities are not complete paths. Only bodhisattvas like Mañujuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on will function in this way for ordinary people who have no regular yidam practice.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Heruka85, Kunzang Tobgyal, Motova, PeterC, Tanaduk, tonyv, WeiHan, Widur, Yahoo [Bot] and 94 guests