Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Locked
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3271
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sat May 19, 2018 8:31 pm

In any event, our life is like a candle, and the wax is burning down.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

krodha
Posts: 2403
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Sat May 19, 2018 9:00 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:34 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:32 pm

Indeed. This thread, however, appears to be immortal.
So it appears.

Kevin...
Not immortal, but definitely reborn. Here is its previous incarnation:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26425

emaho
Posts: 857
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sat May 19, 2018 9:05 pm

Sorry guys, but all teachers from whom I have received Phowa and Bardo teachings agree that being led to a pure land is favourable to a human rebirth, including the passage by Thrangu Rinpoche I've quoted earlier:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
:shrug:

We won't resolve this issue here.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28040
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2018 9:52 pm

emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:05 pm
Sorry guys, but all teachers from whom I have received Phowa and Bardo teachings agree that being led to a pure land is favourable to a human rebirth, including the passage by Thrangu Rinpoche I've quoted earlier:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
Nobody said that being reborn in Sukhavati is negative. All that was stated was that it will take millions of human years to attain buddhahood once one is reborn there, if one is an ordinary person.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

emaho
Posts: 857
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sat May 19, 2018 10:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:52 pm
All that was stated was that it will take millions of human years to attain buddhahood once one is reborn there, if one is an ordinary person.
I understood you very clearly. And that is what I refuse to believe because it doesn't make sense. If you have the alternative of gaining liberation in a couple of lifetimes in a human body, or millions of years in a pure land, then obviously the human body would be the much better choice. However all teachings I've heard and read agree that being reborn in a pure land is the better choice.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

Motova
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Motova » Sat May 19, 2018 11:31 pm

emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:52 pm
All that was stated was that it will take millions of human years to attain buddhahood once one is reborn there, if one is an ordinary person.
I understood you very clearly. And that is what I refuse to believe because it doesn't make sense. If you have the alternative of gaining liberation in a couple of lifetimes in a human body, or millions of years in a pure land, then obviously the human body would be the much better choice. However all teachings I've heard and read agree that being reborn in a pure land is the better choice.
Maybe you can choose a precious human birth once you're in Amitabha's pure land?

Maybe they just present that perspective to the crowd when they give those teachings to not alienate people of lesser capacities?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

emaho
Posts: 857
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sat May 19, 2018 11:47 pm

Motova wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:31 pm
Maybe you can choose a precious human birth once you're in Amitabha's pure land?
Or maybe a day in a pure land equals 100 years (or whatever timespan) in a human rebirth in the sense that in a day there you develop as much as you would have in 100 years as a human. Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche used to say that a day of retreat in certain holy places equals a year of retreat in an ordinary place.

PS: not saying it has to be interpreted this way, I'm just saying those passages don't neccessarily have to be taken literally.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

Temicco
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Temicco » Sun May 20, 2018 1:53 am

Josef wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 5:39 pm
This is also essentially what the Tibetan word for "Buddhist" implies.
Nangpa?

I figured it implied insider as opposed to outsider; only Malcolm's report has given me reason to think otherwise.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28040
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2018 1:55 am

emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:52 pm
All that was stated was that it will take millions of human years to attain buddhahood once one is reborn there, if one is an ordinary person.
I understood you very clearly. And that is what I refuse to believe...
Then you refuse to believe what sūtras say on the subject, and in that case, there is no help for you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28040
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2018 1:58 am

emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:47 pm

PS: not saying it has to be interpreted this way, I'm just saying those passages don't neccessarily have to be taken literally.

And thus begins the program of interpreting sūtras and tantras according to what one wishes they said, instead of what they actually say and what authentic masters such as Karma Chagme state about them:


"The duration of one whole fortunate kalpa Is just one day in Sukhavati."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

emaho
Posts: 857
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:58 am
And thus begins the program of interpreting sūtras and tantras according to what one wishes they said
Malcolm, when I have to choose whom I trust, either you or the realized Tibetan masters from whom I have received teachings on phowa and the bardo, I choose the realized Tibetan masters. Deal with it.

The implication of your interpretation is that the most basic teachings you'll receive in every phowa course are nonsense, because they send the students on a million years detour when they could reach enlightenment in a couple of human rebirths. That's just plain nonsense. Insult me all you want. That doesn't change a thing.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
The Cicada
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by The Cicada » Sun May 20, 2018 2:22 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:05 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:58 am
emaho wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 11:47 pm

PS: not saying it has to be interpreted this way, I'm just saying those passages don't neccessarily have to be taken literally.

And thus begins the program of interpreting sūtras and tantras according to what one wishes they said, instead of what they actually say and what authentic masters such as Karma Chagme state about them:


"The duration of one whole fortunate kalpa Is just one day in Sukhavati."


I think it just seems that way, because there are no women there.
Maybe a kalpa passes like a day with all the quiet contentment.

:shrug:

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28040
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2018 2:29 am

emaho wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:58 am
And thus begins the program of interpreting sūtras and tantras according to what one wishes they said
Malcolm, when I have to choose whom I trust, either you or the realized Tibetan masters from whom I have received teachings on phowa and the bardo, I choose the realized Tibetan masters. Deal with it.

The implication of your interpretation is that the most basic teachings you'll receive in every phowa course are nonsense, because they send the students on a million years detour when they could reach enlightenment in a couple of human rebirths. That's just plain nonsense. Insult me all you want. That doesn't change a thing.
Such courses are not nonsense, but teachers rarely draw out the implications of nirmanakāya phowa to Sukhavati, even though the facts as I have outlined them are clearly stated in Karma Chagme's aspiration and so on. I suggest you do more research.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3271
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sun May 20, 2018 2:32 am

I think Malcolm is simply trying to help you recognize your capacity. You don't need to take millions of years emaho.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17360
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 20, 2018 8:22 am

Thread cleaned up. The next off-topic post will draw the author a suspension.

Don't waste my time people
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
Posts: 1143
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by amanitamusc » Sun May 20, 2018 11:01 am

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:07 am
There's a quote by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche that I've come across a couple of times, could somebody tell me where it's from?
“Most Westerners receive a Christian education and in the Christian tradition God is very diffused. God is recognized as something outside. They don’t know that God is in our real nature. If you have that knowledge and you are reading the bible, you can see there are many words that indicate God means our real nature. But then it developed in a more dualistic way. When they started to say, “the unique God governing all universe”, then it became easy to think God is governing everything. But it does not correspond in the real condition. So it is very important when you follow the Dzogchen Teachings, that you really understand what God means. It is not necessary to wonder if God exists or not. Some people are worried there is no God in Buddhism. In Buddhism there are so many kinds of gods, but Buddhists do not speak of the unique God. The essence of Buddhist teaching is Dzogchen, which is the final teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni. Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.”
Thanks!
No I don't know. :shrug:

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun May 20, 2018 1:57 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:01 am
emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:07 am
There's a quote by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche that I've come across a couple of times, could somebody tell me where it's from?
“Most Westerners receive a Christian education and in the Christian tradition God is very diffused. God is recognized as something outside. They don’t know that God is in our real nature. If you have that knowledge and you are reading the bible, you can see there are many words that indicate God means our real nature. But then it developed in a more dualistic way. When they started to say, “the unique God governing all universe”, then it became easy to think God is governing everything. But it does not correspond in the real condition. So it is very important when you follow the Dzogchen Teachings, that you really understand what God means. It is not necessary to wonder if God exists or not. Some people are worried there is no God in Buddhism. In Buddhism there are so many kinds of gods, but Buddhists do not speak of the unique God. The essence of Buddhist teaching is Dzogchen, which is the final teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni. Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.”
Thanks!
No I don't know. :shrug:
The question was answered in the second post of the thread:

http://ylonhost-eu.com/melong.com/wp-co ... ror108.pdf
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun May 20, 2018 2:05 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:57 pm
The question was answered in the second post of the thread:

http://ylonhost-eu.com/melong.com/wp-co ... ror108.pdf

That really was a great post, now that I look at it again.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3271
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sun May 20, 2018 3:10 pm

Emaho, invite Rihanna the teachers most important. The teachers out of compassion give us many methods. If your confidence is to go to the Western pure land, then that is wonderful.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3271
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sun May 20, 2018 4:16 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:10 pm
invite Rihanna
invite Rihanna = in Vajrayana. Darn phones. :rolling:

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Leif and 47 guests