Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Locked
User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 am

Virgo wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:52 am
I still think this thread is going to take a turn for the worse and should be locked up (QUARANTINE!) The OP's questions has been answered successfully anyway by Loppon.

Kevin

the contrast seems to be sport in Buddhism, always if it is in a tranquil way. I think that closing "complicated" topics does not bring much ... there are things that are better to talk about

User avatar
Virgo
Former staff member
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 2:00 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 am
Virgo wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:52 am
I still think this thread is going to take a turn for the worse and should be locked up (QUARANTINE!) The OP's questions has been answered successfully anyway by Loppon.

Kevin

the contrast seems to be sport in Buddhism, always if it is in a tranquil way. I think that closing "complicated" topics does not bring much ... there are things that are better to talk about
OK, well we differ in opinion on this topic J. :namaste:

Kevin...

User avatar
Virgo
Former staff member
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 2:09 am

In general, the way people understand the crux of the matter here is by receiving the empowerment and liberating instructions from a lama, and then putting those into practice. Unless someone has a karmic connection for that, it is not going to happen. The best we can do for them is to help them form a connection to the path.

The crux is that this (Dzogchen) is a liberating path, these other non-Buddhist paths, though they may have some similarities to Dzogchen, miss the mark, and if the mark is missed...

So what we need is the experience presented by the master during the empowerment/introduction.

Kevin...

User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Tue May 15, 2018 4:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:59 am
Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.
Because we interact with non-Buddhists on a daily basis. So, we have at least three options:

a) we don't talk to them about Dharma
This is the best thing, unless they ask.
I mean, isn't that a little bit at odds with the spirit of Mahāyāna? Obviously, we're not going to talk about advanced teachings we're not authorized to share with someone who wouldn't benefit from them anyway. But things like śamatha, for example, can benefit everybody, even non-Buddhists. Lamas like Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche and Alan Wallace have said it would be lacking in compassion not to share general teachings that can help alleviate suffering, relatively if not ultimately. We are enjoined to rejoice even in the samsaric happiness of sentient beings.
Are other traditions profound? How so? How do they lead to something other than higher birth in samsara?
Even if you don't believe another tradition leads to anything beyond favorable rebirth, you're not going to get anywhere when engaging with a knowledgeable adherent of that tradition if you are willfully ignorant of it. They will notice when you misconstrue it and rely on strawman caricatures of non-Buddhist teachings, brought out only to be summarily dismissed without serious investigation. If you have actually studied different systems with sincerity and are still convinced that only Buddhist vehicles are valid, and that of those Atiyoga is the undisputed pinnacle, then they will respect your judgment more than if you come across as a narrow sectarian.
The only thing similar between Buddhadharma and other traditions is that we all emphasize compassion; but even here, the compassion of other traditions is limited in its scope.
I think the cultivation of attention, along the lines of śamatha, has parallels in the Hindu, Christian, and Sufi traditions; perhaps in others. Nowadays it is taught even in secular contexts. Not that these approaches are in every respect identical, but that ethically neutral meditative practice is fairly universal in the major world tradtions. Someone who has cultivated their attention well, even if in a non-Buddhist context, might be better prepared to receive the View. That compassion you mentioned couldn't hurt either, even if it isn't Great Compassion.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

amanitamusc
Posts: 1639
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue May 15, 2018 6:31 am

ChNN told of when he stayed with a xstian fam in India before he hooked up
with Tucci and he didn't let on to his belief/practice and even said amen at
the dinner table after the prayer.They thought he was a devout xstian
He said he was just working with his circumstances.A true Master!

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue May 15, 2018 5:31 pm

Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:59 am
Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 am


Because we interact with non-Buddhists on a daily basis. So, we have at least three options:

a) we don't talk to them about Dharma
This is the best thing, unless they ask.
I mean, isn't that a little bit at odds with the spirit of Mahāyāna? Obviously, we're not going to talk about advanced teachings we're not authorized to share with someone who wouldn't benefit from them anyway. But things like śamatha, for example, can benefit everybody, even non-Buddhists. Lamas like Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche and Alan Wallace have said it would be lacking in compassion not to share general teachings that can help alleviate suffering, relatively if not ultimately. We are enjoined to rejoice even in the samsaric happiness of sentient beings.
Are other traditions profound? How so? How do they lead to something other than higher birth in samsara?
Even if you don't believe another tradition leads to anything beyond favorable rebirth, you're not going to get anywhere when engaging with a knowledgeable adherent of that tradition if you are willfully ignorant of it. They will notice when you misconstrue it and rely on strawman caricatures of non-Buddhist teachings, brought out only to be summarily dismissed without serious investigation. If you have actually studied different systems with sincerity and are still convinced that only Buddhist vehicles are valid, and that of those Atiyoga is the undisputed pinnacle, then they will respect your judgment more than if you come across as a narrow sectarian.
The only thing similar between Buddhadharma and other traditions is that we all emphasize compassion; but even here, the compassion of other traditions is limited in its scope.
I think the cultivation of attention, along the lines of śamatha, has parallels in the Hindu, Christian, and Sufi traditions; perhaps in others. Nowadays it is taught even in secular contexts. Not that these approaches are in every respect identical, but that ethically neutral meditative practice is fairly universal in the major world tradtions. Someone who has cultivated their attention well, even if in a non-Buddhist context, might be better prepared to receive the View. That compassion you mentioned couldn't hurt either, even if it isn't Great Compassion.

Well spoken.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
Posts: 29106
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 7:17 pm

If they ask, we can share.

If you don’t discuss the teachings with those who are not interested, there is no risk of being seen as a narrow minded sectarian.

With respect to dhyana and so on, these mental states are not in and of themselves liberative. In fact, without right view they merely create paths of samsaric rebirth. Further, improper meditation blocks right view.

Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:59 am
Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 am


Because we interact with non-Buddhists on a daily basis. So, we have at least three options:

a) we don't talk to them about Dharma
This is the best thing, unless they ask.
I mean, isn't that a little bit at odds with the spirit of Mahāyāna? Obviously, we're not going to talk about advanced teachings we're not authorized to share with someone who wouldn't benefit from them anyway. But things like śamatha, for example, can benefit everybody, even non-Buddhists. Lamas like Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche and Alan Wallace have said it would be lacking in compassion not to share general teachings that can help alleviate suffering, relatively if not ultimately. We are enjoined to rejoice even in the samsaric happiness of sentient beings.
Are other traditions profound? How so? How do they lead to something other than higher birth in samsara?
Even if you don't believe another tradition leads to anything beyond favorable rebirth, you're not going to get anywhere when engaging with a knowledgeable adherent of that tradition if you are willfully ignorant of it. They will notice when you misconstrue it and rely on strawman caricatures of non-Buddhist teachings, brought out only to be summarily dismissed without serious investigation. If you have actually studied different systems with sincerity and are still convinced that only Buddhist vehicles are valid, and that of those Atiyoga is the undisputed pinnacle, then they will respect your judgment more than if you come across as a narrow sectarian.
The only thing similar between Buddhadharma and other traditions is that we all emphasize compassion; but even here, the compassion of other traditions is limited in its scope.
I think the cultivation of attention, along the lines of śamatha, has parallels in the Hindu, Christian, and Sufi traditions; perhaps in others. Nowadays it is taught even in secular contexts. Not that these approaches are in every respect identical, but that ethically neutral meditative practice is fairly universal in the major world tradtions. Someone who has cultivated their attention well, even if in a non-Buddhist context, might be better prepared to receive the View. That compassion you mentioned couldn't hurt either, even if it isn't Great Compassion.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue May 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.

Acharya, I was thinking about this eloquently phrased comment and, as the main pro-tirthika guy on the board, I would like to ask you a question. Consider the experiences ChNN reports here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=23279&p=349373#p349373.
Why, in your opinion, did he give a flying f*&k about any of that?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
Posts: 29106
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 8:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.

Acharya, I was thinking about this eloquently phrased comment and, as the main pro-tirthika guy on the board, I would like to ask you a question. Consider the experiences ChNN reports here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=23279&p=349373#p349373.
Why, in your opinion, did he give a flying f*&k about any of that?
Nyams are nyams, nice, but in the end, not the main point.

florin
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by florin » Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 pm

If Madonna is Green Tara then Jesus is Tara's son. Did he knew his aunties?

User avatar
Virgo
Former staff member
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 9:05 pm

Kevin...
Last edited by Virgo on Tue May 15, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
Posts: 1487
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:01 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Tue May 15, 2018 9:15 pm

Virgo wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:05 pm
This conversation is less than stimulating.
which reminded me...why does everything reproduce ?

seriously.

trees, flowers, insects, germs, humans..........WHY ?

emaho
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Tue May 15, 2018 9:48 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 am
ChNN must not have gotten the memo since, apparently, he considers Jesus to have been an enlightened being.
Neither has Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche. He once said during a teaching that Jesus was a high Bodhisattva and if he'd enter the room, he, CRR, would immediately step down from his throne and prostrate to Jesus.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

emaho
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Tue May 15, 2018 9:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:58 pm
This business about the soul”s spark is exactly the atman Buddha refuted. Surprised you don’t get that. There is no dependent origination here, no emptiness, etc, just an assertion of an unconditioned substance called a soul.
Are you saying that Buddha-nature is dependent on causes and conditions?
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 15, 2018 10:24 pm

emaho wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:58 pm
This business about the soul”s spark is exactly the atman Buddha refuted. Surprised you don’t get that. There is no dependent origination here, no emptiness, etc, just an assertion of an unconditioned substance called a soul.
Are you saying that Buddha-nature is dependent on causes and conditions?
it is explained that it is not an object nor a subject.

emaho
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:24 pm
it is explained that it is not an object nor a subject.
I know. I'm just not aware that Meister Eckart speaks of this soul's spark as a substance, and just because he calls it unconditioned doesn't mean it has to be wrong or completely opposed to the Dharma, because Buddha-nature is also unconditioned.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

Malcolm
Posts: 29106
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 11:58 pm

emaho wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:58 pm
This business about the soul”s spark is exactly the atman Buddha refuted. Surprised you don’t get that. There is no dependent origination here, no emptiness, etc, just an assertion of an unconditioned substance called a soul.
Are you saying that Buddha-nature is dependent on causes and conditions?
Buddhanature depends on sentient beings.

Malcolm
Posts: 29106
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Wed May 16, 2018 12:08 am

emaho wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:24 pm
it is explained that it is not an object nor a subject.
I know. I'm just not aware that Meister Eckart speaks of this soul's spark as a substance, and just because he calls it unconditioned doesn't mean it has to be wrong or completely opposed to the Dharma, because Buddha-nature is also unconditioned.
Are you making the assertion that use of the term “unconditioned” renders all traditions that use the term compatible? The sugatagarbha doctrine has a few variations, for example, the Lanka equates it with the all-basis consciousness. As I understand the term, tathagatagarbha refers to the union of the mind”s clarity and emptiness. That union is unconditioned, but the mind itself is conditioned. Just this is the “god” ChNN is referring to, and nothing else, since the basis is just this.

emaho
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Wed May 16, 2018 12:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:08 am
Are you making the assertion that use of the term “unconditioned” renders all traditions that use the term compatible?
Nope, of course not.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Wed May 16, 2018 3:33 am

emaho wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:48 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 am
ChNN must not have gotten the memo since, apparently, he considers Jesus to have been an enlightened being.
Neither has Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche. He once said during a teaching that Jesus was a high Bodhisattva and if he'd enter the room, he, CRR, would immediately step down from his throne and prostrate to Jesus.
HHDL has also called JC a bodhisattva.
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
🙏🌺🙏

Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ratna and 53 guests