Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

emaho
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 6:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:22 pm
emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:13 pm
God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.
What is ChNN referring to with "base" here? I mean, which Tibetan term corresponds to it?
Gzhi, not kun gzhi.
Ah, thx!
Last edited by emaho on Sun May 13, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sun May 13, 2018 6:31 pm

Nevermind. Thank you.

Kevin...
Last edited by Virgo on Sun May 13, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 13, 2018 6:36 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:18 pm
But sometimes i get mixed up and think Extraterrestrials have something to do with our creation...
And i think religion is how they brainwash us....

We have no control over our minds...they can control us, and make us think whatever THEY want....
They can even manipulate phenomena...just like yogis that have that power......

All this can literally drive one crazy....
Say what? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Sun May 13, 2018 6:44 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:31 pm
one can understand through ones experience. This is what is meant by "belief is useless",
Yes...but how do i KNOW that WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED is AUTHENTIC (as far as Dzogchen authentic stuff goes)
I've had lot's of different kinds of experiences through my life...

the ecstasy of the beauty of nature...
kundalini (the wave slowly going up your spine like thick honey)
being in love
ogasms
bliss of just being alive
the weird unexplainable feeling of emptiness (it scrambles my mind)

the pointing out....(like a reflection in a mirror ) ???? (still trying to figure that one out ) :shrug:

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Sun May 13, 2018 6:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:36 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:18 pm
But sometimes i get mixed up and think Extraterrestrials have something to do with our creation...
And i think religion is how they brainwash us....

We have no control over our minds...they can control us, and make us think whatever THEY want....
They can even manipulate phenomena...just like yogis that have that power......

All this can literally drive one crazy....
Say what? :shrug:
I've experienced stuff (abductions)
also read a TON of books about this phenomena :rolleye:

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 13, 2018 6:49 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:47 pm
I've experienced stuff (abductions)
also read a TON of books about this phenomena :rolleye:
You were abducted (a number of times) by aliens?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Sun May 13, 2018 6:51 pm

also observing my teacher...
he taught me stuff in a weird way....

every time i wash dishes i feel like the dishes are alive...a living thing...because one time when i watched HIM washing dishes...that's how it looked to me....like he was washing a living thing...did it so gently and mindfully...

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun May 13, 2018 6:52 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:58 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:25 pm
Here's Terry on the Ditchkins crowd
Watching it right nor, excellent talk, thanks for the link!
Glad you like it!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Sun May 13, 2018 6:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:49 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:47 pm
I've experienced stuff (abductions)
also read a TON of books about this phenomena :rolleye:
You were abducted (a number of times) by aliens?
Yes

:jumping:


Many people have had this experience

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 13, 2018 7:01 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:53 pm
Yes

:jumping:


Many people have had this experience
Okay.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

emaho
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 8:02 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:22 pm
emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:13 pm


What is ChNN referring to with "base" here? I mean, which Tibetan term corresponds to it?
Gzhi, not kun gzhi.
Ah, thx!
PS: I was going with the entry from the RY Wiki, the part that I've marked blue:
alaya - all-ground. Literally, the 'foundation of all things.' The basis of mind and both pure and impure phenomena. This word has different meanings in different contexts and should be understood accordingly. Sometimes it is synonymous with buddha nature or dharmakaya, the recognition of which is the basis for all pure phenomena; other times, as in the case of the 'ignorant all-ground,' it refers to a neutral state of dualistic mind that has not been embraced by innate wakefulness and thus is the basis for samsaric experience [RY]
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/kun_gzhi

I wasn't aware that ChNN uses this term in the sense of the green part. Thanks for explaining.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun May 13, 2018 8:08 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:31 pm
one can understand through ones experience. This is what is meant by "belief is useless",
Yes...but how do i KNOW that WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED is AUTHENTIC (as far as Dzogchen authentic stuff goes)
I've had lot's of different kinds of experiences through my life...

the ecstasy of the beauty of nature...
kundalini (the wave slowly going up your spine like thick honey)
being in love
ogasms
bliss of just being alive
the weird unexplainable feeling of emptiness (it scrambles my mind)

the pointing out....(like a reflection in a mirror ) ???? (still trying to figure that one out ) :shrug:
You don't, there is no final conceptual answer to things in Dzogchen, so certainty and authenticity does not come through ideas, even if ideas can be useful.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Sun May 13, 2018 8:19 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:08 pm
there is no final conceptual answer to things in Dzogchen, so certainty and authenticity does not come through ideas, even if ideas can be useful.
Then why do some people seem to know so much ?
But the "non-conceptual"...is more "intuitive" ...wouldn't you say ?

or just say nothing...(silence)

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sun May 13, 2018 8:28 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm
Not sure if I'm getting your point here, Karma_Yeshe. What I said was that some, or actually quite a few Christian Theologians have an understanding of God that is compatible with Buddhist teachings about the alaya / kun gzhi. If you say that some others don't, OK, it doesn't really contradict me, does it? And if you're implying their view isn't relevant, yeah well, that's your opinion. Comparing them to Stephen Batchelor is just polemics, not an argument.
It tried to point out that the guys you mention don't belong to the christian mainstream, just like Batchelor does not belong to the buddhist one.
Karl Rahner was the mastermind behind the Second Vatican Council, Bonhöffer one of most influental people on protestantism in last century. They both agree that Christianity is an "Offenbarungsreligion", meaning a religion where some higher being reveals the truth of that religion via prophets of this higher, universal truth, which comes from god. The Bible is a result of that process. It also reads like this. How that can be mixed with the buddhist idea that an individual discovers his (or her) "real" nature and because of that sees the world differently is beyond me.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Sun May 13, 2018 8:35 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:28 pm
emaho wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm
Not sure if I'm getting your point here, Karma_Yeshe. What I said was that some, or actually quite a few Christian Theologians have an understanding of God that is compatible with Buddhist teachings about the alaya / kun gzhi. If you say that some others don't, OK, it doesn't really contradict me, does it? And if you're implying their view isn't relevant, yeah well, that's your opinion. Comparing them to Stephen Batchelor is just polemics, not an argument.
It tried to point out that the guys you mention don't belong to the christian mainstream, just like Batchelor does not belong to the buddhist one.
Karl Rahner was the mastermind behind the Second Vatican Council, Bonhöffer one of most influental people on protestantism in last century. They both agree that Christianity is an "Offenbarungsreligion", meaning a religion where some higher being reveals the truth of that religion via prophets of this higher, universal truth, which comes from god. The Bible is a result of that process. It also reads like this. How that can be mixed with the buddhist idea that an individual discovers his (or her) "real" nature and because of that sees the world differently is beyond me.
Then you should enjoy some teachings from a Buddhist teacher that is not making that comparison. ChNN is a master of Buddhist philosophy. He is not saying the two teachings are equivalent or lead to the same goal.

Kevin...

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by emaho » Sun May 13, 2018 9:32 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:28 pm
It tried to point out that the guys you mention don't belong to the christian mainstream.
OK, to that I can agree. I just don't think their status within the Catholic church is comparable to that of Batchelor in Buddhism.
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:28 pm
The Bible is a result of that process. It also reads like this. How that can be mixed with the buddhist idea that an individual discovers his (or her) "real" nature and because of that sees the world differently is beyond me.
If some Christian theologians give up the idea of God being a person, they're going to have to give up taking this father-son thing literally, too, anyway. So they're going to have to interpret that as a metaphor. I think the divide that you're seeing here is rather between those theologians standing in the mystic tradition and those upholding a notion of god as a person. Btw, to avoid a misunderstanding, I'm not saying that Buddhism and Christianity are the same.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sun May 13, 2018 9:51 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:35 pm
ChNN is a master of Buddhist philosophy. He is not saying the two teachings are equivalent or lead to the same goal.

Kevin...
But he is saying that: "They don’t know that God is in our real nature. If you have that knowledge and you are reading the bible, you can see there are many words that indicate God means our real nature."

Yeshe

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Aryjna » Sun May 13, 2018 10:21 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:51 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:35 pm
ChNN is a master of Buddhist philosophy. He is not saying the two teachings are equivalent or lead to the same goal.

Kevin...
But he is saying that: "They don’t know that God is in our real nature. If you have that knowledge and you are reading the bible, you can see there are many words that indicate God means our real nature."

Yeshe
I guess that just shows that people will read whatever they want to read when it comes to things that are relatively abstract.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun May 13, 2018 10:34 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:19 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:08 pm
there is no final conceptual answer to things in Dzogchen, so certainty and authenticity does not come through ideas, even if ideas can be useful.
Then why do some people seem to know so much ?
But the "non-conceptual"...is more "intuitive" ...wouldn't you say ?

or just say nothing...(silence)
Seeing your own nature is a bigger deal than producing better and better ideas, nonetheless, in some situations ideas are useful.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Mon May 14, 2018 12:06 am

Image

Kevin...

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