Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Wed May 23, 2018 3:59 pm

Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about. ..but you know what I'm talking about.... :D

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Spelare
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 pm
unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness.
But isn't Dependant Origination just a logical conclusion ?
I'd say it's scientific logic...maybe physics ?

Maybe it takes a genius to figure out ?
Do you mean that one can realize emptiness experientially without receiving an intensive scholastic training? Isn't that the case for many Dzogchen masters?
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Wed May 23, 2018 4:40 pm

Spelare wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 pm
unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness.
But isn't Dependant Origination just a logical conclusion ?
I'd say it's scientific logic...maybe physics ?

Maybe it takes a genius to figure out ?
Do you mean that one can realize emptiness experientially without receiving an intensive scholastic training? Isn't that the case for many Dzogchen masters?

What I mean is, if you are searching for truth all your life, and you've thought of all the possibilities of how life started...racked your brain... going around in circles ....obsessed with trying to figure it all out....or your just a genius and logically it just makes sense......OR YEAH....you are,a Dzogchen master....and have realized emptiness in past lives too......
Eventually it will just click, if you've thought of all the possibilities. ALSO you wouldn't even have to think much....but just through meditation.....couldn't it just happen ?

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed May 23, 2018 4:41 pm

Spelare wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm
Do you mean that one can realize emptiness experientially without receiving an intensive scholastic training? Isn't that the case for many Dzogchen masters?

Indeed, see: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 36#p407436
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Wed May 23, 2018 4:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 pm
The why is: unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness.
So, you're saying that an independent scholar studying Buddhist philosophy, as in my hypothetical case, could not realize emptiness when he had access to the canonical teachings? Are you perhaps alluding to the lack of formal prerequisites such as refuge and bodhicitta, or the guidance of a dharma teacher? Of course, all of those could be easily accessed by any scholar in the contemporary West.

By implication, are you saying that, for example, a Bön Dzogchen practitioner wouldn't realize emptiness due to not understanding dependent origination "as the Buddha taught it"? Or would you say that Bön has been adequately infused with authentic Buddhadharma to qualify? Where can we draw the line between "Buddhist enough" and "not Buddhist enough" to access authentic realization of emptiness and whatever else need be realized?
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Wed May 23, 2018 6:48 pm

Spelare wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 pm
unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness.
But isn't Dependant Origination just a logical conclusion ?
I'd say it's scientific logic...maybe physics ?

Maybe it takes a genius to figure out ?
Do you mean that one can realize emptiness experientially without receiving an intensive scholastic training? Isn't that the case for many Dzogchen masters?
It is the case for many Dzogchen practitioners, and tantrikas, but they are given an example wisdom by the master during the empowerment.

Outside the scope of Buddhist practice, no one realizes emptiness. This is not because we want to have some kind of sole dominion over it, but because if you realize emptiness you by definition reject eternalistic viewpoints, and coform with Buddhist Teachings.

Kevin...

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Wed May 23, 2018 7:10 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
if you realize emptiness you by definition reject eternalistic viewpoints, and coform with Buddhist Teachings.
Of course !
Makes no sense otherwise. To believe in a Creator being....you gotta figure out how he got here.
When you see the logic/math of Dependant Origination, you realize there couldn't be a beginning or end...because a beginning would mean there is an end...and if there is an end...how can there be a beginning ....because the end would mean THE END...but it never ends or begins....and that's just one example...


But "God" could of ALWAYS BEEN HERE TOO...NO BEGINNING OR ENDING TO "HIM"....and we are Dependant Originally on this Creator Being.....maybe that's what ChNN means ?( And that's where the AdiBuddha (self created) comes in ?)

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... antabhadra

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Atiyoga

:rolleye:

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Wed May 23, 2018 8:12 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:10 pm
But "God" could of ALWAYS BEEN HERE TOO...NO BEGINNING OR ENDING TO "HIM"....and we are Dependant Originally on this Creator Being.....maybe that's what ChNN means ?( And that's where the AdiBuddha (self created) comes in ?)
Definitely not.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed May 23, 2018 8:49 pm

I kind of like the way Tai Situ Rinpoche puts it:
Pramana helps us to get these things right. Another example is the concept of a god as a creator. I am quite sure that most of you know that in Buddhism we believe in all the gods but we don’t believe somebody created us. Yet we understand and appreciate the creator concept because we consider ourselves equal to the highest power and believe we created ourselves. If we have done something good yesterday we feel good today. If we have done something bad yesterday we may end up in jail today. We created the situation we are experiencing now. In our past lives we created a connection with our parents and the rest of our family, so in this life we ended up with this couple we call daddy and mummy. The same process applies to our brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews and all the other kinds of people around us. In our past lives we have also developed connections with the other people here. Relationships called teacher-student, guru-disciple, friend, husband and wife, are all productions of our many past lives. We don’t believe it is arranged by somebody like a chessboard: no one is playing games with our lives. We don’t believe in that kind of creation, but we believe in creation. Creation is accomplished by the ultimate essence within us, an essence equal to the essence of any god you can think of.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Norwegian » Wed May 23, 2018 9:44 pm

Or as the great Dharmakirti put it, on the belief in God: "[It's] the mark of the crass stupidity of witless men."
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 pm

pael wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:55 pm
Do Theravada and Mahayana understand dependent origination same way?
No. Theravadins use it to understand the emptiness of persons. Mahayanists use it to understand the emptiness of all phenomena. Tantrikas, of course, are understanding it the same way, but also going beyond just emptiness alone.

Kevin...

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Wed May 23, 2018 11:05 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 pm
pael wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:55 pm
Do Theravada and Mahayana understand dependent origination same way?
No. Theravadins use it to understand the emptiness of persons. Mahayanists use it to understand the emptiness of all phenomena. Tantrikas, of course, are understanding it the same way, but also going beyond just emptiness alone.

Kevin...
Common Mahāyāna does not fixate on emptiness alone either, it just isn't as insistent about clarifying that emptiness always pertains to mind and appearances.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Wed May 23, 2018 11:07 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:05 pm
Virgo wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 pm
pael wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:55 pm
Do Theravada and Mahayana understand dependent origination same way?
No. Theravadins use it to understand the emptiness of persons. Mahayanists use it to understand the emptiness of all phenomena. Tantrikas, of course, are understanding it the same way, but also going beyond just emptiness alone.

Kevin...
Common Mahāyāna does not fixate on emptiness alone either, it just isn't as insistent about clarifying that emptiness always pertains to mind and appearances.
Thank you for the correction. :namaste:

Kevin...

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Wed May 23, 2018 11:16 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:44 pm
Or as the great Dharmakirti put it, on the belief in God: "[It's] the mark of the crass stupidity of witless men."
I believe Dharmakīrti made such remarks in the context of critiquing Śaiva tantra. Had he known of Buddhist tantric practice, he would likely have viewed it as a corruption of Buddhism and criticized it in similar terms. I think most of us would disagree with such an assessment.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Wed May 23, 2018 11:36 pm

Spelare wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:16 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:44 pm
Or as the great Dharmakirti put it, on the belief in God: "[It's] the mark of the crass stupidity of witless men."
I believe Dharmakīrti made such remarks in the context of critiquing Śaiva tantra. Had he known of Buddhist tantric practice, he would likely have viewed it as a corruption of Buddhism and criticized it in similar terms. I think most of us would disagree with such an assessment.
Vasubandhu roasted the notion of a creator deity (as a first cause) as well, so Dharmakīrti was familiar with the absurdity of the idea.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Wed May 23, 2018 11:48 pm

Here is Vasubandhu's critique, from his Abhidharmakosabhasyam:

  • All the dharmas that arise arise by reason of the five causes and the four conditions that we have just explained. The world does not proceed from a single cause that is called God, or Purusa, or Pradhana, or any other name.

    How do you prove this thesis?
    If you think that the thesis is proven through arguments, you betray your doctrine that the world arises from a single cause.

    64d. Not from God or from any other cause, since there is a succession, etc.
    That things are produced by a single cause, by God, Mahadeva, or Vasudeva, is inadmissable for many reasons.

    1.) If things were produced by a single cause, they would arise all at the same time: now each of us knows that they arise successively.

    [The Theist:] They arise successively by virtue of the desires of God, who says, "May this arise now! May this perish now! May this arise and perish later!"

    If this were the case, then things do not arise from a single cause, since the desires (of God) are multiple. Moreover these multiple desires would have to be simultaneous, since God, the cause of these desires, is not multiple, and things would all arise at the same time.

    a. [The Theist:] The desires of God are not simultaneous, because God, in order to produce his desires, takes into account other causes.

    If this were so, then God is not the single unique cause of all things. And the causes that God takes into account are produced successively: they depend then on causes which are themselves dependent on other causes: an infinite regression.

    [The Theist:] It is admitted that the series of causes has no beginning.

    This would admit that samsara does not have an origin. You then abandon the doctrine of a single cause and return to the Buddhist theory of causes (hetus) and conditions (pratyaya).

    b. [The Theist:] The desires of God are simultaneous, but things do not arise at the same time because they arise as God wishes them to arise, that is, in succession.

    This is inadmissible. The desires of God remain what they are. Let us explain. Suppose that God desires "May this arise now! May that arise later!" We do not see why the second desire, at first nonefficacious, will be efficacious later; why, if it is efficacious later, it will not be so initially.

    What advantage does God obtain from this great effort by which he produces the world?

    [The Theist:] God produces the world for his own satisfaction (ptiti).

    He is then not God, the Sovereign (Isvara), in what concerns his own satisfaction, since he cannot realize it without a means (upaya). And if he is not sovereign with regard to his own satisfaction, how can he be sovereign with regard to the world?

    Further, do you say that God finds satisfaction in seeing the creatures that he has created in the prey of all the sufferings of existence, including the tortures of the hells? Homage to this God! Well said, in truth, is the popular stanza, "He is called Rudra because he burns, because he is excited, ferocious, terrible, an eater of flesh, blood, and marrow"

    3.) The followers of God, the single cause of the world, deny visible causes,—causes and conditions,—the efficacy of the seed with regard to the sprout, etc. If, modifying their position, they admit the existence of these causes, and pretend that these causes serve God as auxiliaries, this then is no more that a pious affirmation, for we do not maintain any activity of a cause besides the activity of the so-called secondary causes. Furthermore, God would not be sovereign with regard to auxiliary causes, since these cooperate in the production of the effect through their own efficacy. Perhaps, in order to avoid the negation of causes, which are visible, and in order to avoid the affirmation of present action by God, which is not visible, the Theist would say that the work of God is creation: but creation, dependent only on God, would never have a beginning, like God himself, and this is a consequence that the Theist rejects.

    We would refute the doctrine of Purusa, of Pradhana, etc., as we have refuted the theist doctrine, mutatis mutandis. Thus, no dharma arises from a single cause.

    Alas, persons are unclear! Like the birds and the animals, truly worth of pity, they go from existence to existence, accomplishing diverse actions; they experience the results of these actions and falsely believe that God is the cause of these results. (We must explain the Truth in order to put an end to this false conception.)

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Wed May 23, 2018 11:58 pm

So, how would these great scholars of pramāṇa regard the metaphorical use of phrases like "all-creating king" in Dzogchen tantras? I'm curious if anyone knows how such language was formally justified in a historical Buddhist context, either Indian or Tibetan. Was there a time when it would have been controversial? If so, was the controversy decisively settled, or did it flare up repeatedly?
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Thu May 24, 2018 12:10 am

Spelare wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:58 pm
So, how would these great scholars of pramāṇa regard the metaphorical use of phrases like "all-creating king" in Dzogchen tantras? I'm curious if anyone knows how such language was formally justified in a historical Buddhist context, either Indian or Tibetan.
Vasubandhu and Dharmakīrti were Yogācārins. Dzogchen is a Madhyamaka-Yogācāra synthesis in terms of view. Given that the "all creating king" is only intended to refer to your own mind, there is nothing for Yogācārins to object to in that sense.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Sennin » Thu May 24, 2018 12:19 am

krodha wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:12 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:10 pm
But "God" could of ALWAYS BEEN HERE TOO...NO BEGINNING OR ENDING TO "HIM"....and we are Dependant Originally on this Creator Being.....maybe that's what ChNN means ?( And that's where the AdiBuddha (self created) comes in ?)
Definitely not.
:thumbsup:
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Spelare
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Thu May 24, 2018 1:18 am

krodha wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 12:10 am
Spelare wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:58 pm
So, how would these great scholars of pramāṇa regard the metaphorical use of phrases like "all-creating king" in Dzogchen tantras? I'm curious if anyone knows how such language was formally justified in a historical Buddhist context, either Indian or Tibetan.
Vasubandhu and Dharmakīrti were Yogācārins. Dzogchen is a Madhyamaka-Yogācāra synthesis in terms of view. Given that the "all creating king" is only intended to refer to your own mind, there is nothing for Yogācārins to object to in that sense.
Indeed, that is the intent. However, much of the language of Kunjed Gyalpo sounds like it could have been borrowed from a Hindu scripture, and not only the title. Do we know that this deiform language was always understood in that way by its proponents and any detractors there may have been?

Also, aside from the linguistic aspect, how was yidam practice defended in Indian and Tibetan contexts?
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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