Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 18, 2018 1:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:53 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:38 am
Motova wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:06 am
How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.

Finally, a truly practice-related question.
Another dzogchungpa (tm) putdown.
I do believe that, for once, he is being serious.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 11:53 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:38 am



Finally, a truly practice-related question.
Another dzogchungpa (tm) putdown.
I do believe that, for once, he is being serious.
Nice joke.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 18, 2018 2:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm
Nice joke.
Ye of little faith!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 3:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm
Nice joke.
Ye of little faith!
Who needs faith when one has the evidence of one's eyes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Motova » Fri May 18, 2018 4:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:15 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:06 am
How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.
One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.
Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri May 18, 2018 4:39 pm

You can attain rebirth in the eastern paradise of medicine buddha. But it is a lot more difficult than the western pure land. Gives a lot of stuff for thought. Also this world is considered an impure buddha field that can be turned into a full pure land. Potentially at least. Who knows how and when?

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 4:40 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:15 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:06 am
How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.
One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.
Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?
No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 4:43 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:39 pm
You can attain rebirth in the eastern paradise of medicine buddha. But it is a lot more difficult than the western pure land. Gives a lot of stuff for thought. Also this world is considered an impure buddha field that can be turned into a full pure land. Potentially at least. Who knows how and when?
Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm

Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri May 18, 2018 5:16 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm
Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

I used to feel the same way but this really opened my eyes.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 5:16 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm
Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.
Then your bodhicitta is weak.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri May 18, 2018 5:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:16 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm
Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

I used to feel the same way but this really opened my eyes.
Thank you.

Wicked Yeshe
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 am

Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:16 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm
Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.
Then your bodhicitta is weak.
Maybe! I think of it as samvega.

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by cyril » Fri May 18, 2018 5:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:43 pm

Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.
I guess that depends on your definition of the worst Dzogchen practitioner. Apparently, receiving Dzogchen teachings and praticing them to the best of your abilities does not necessarily make you a Dzogchen practitioner albeit ofthe worst kind.

A couple of days before we left, Khenpo arranged for his brother, Kyali Loli, to have an interview with the Chatralwa. Loli was neither a scholar nor an accomplished meditator. Anyhow, he had already received Dzogpa Chenpo teachings and had practiced them after completion of his common practices and preliminaries. But when he met Chatralwa it was disappointing for him. It is not because he wasn't doing well with his Dzogpa Chenpo meditation, but that he wasn't even ready to start it.

On that day, one of the most important days of his life, Kyali Loli went to see Chatralwa. Loli was a very courageous person and nothing would intimidate him. So Loli explained his practice, especially concerning his Dzogpa Chenpo experiences, and he requested instructions and clarifications. Chatralwa, without making any remarks about Loli's presentation, said:
"You should first try to say with devotion the "name prayer" of Amitabha Buddha I00 times a day, then increase it to 200, and so on. One day there might be a time when whatever you are doing, you will always be united with the expression of the ''name'' of the Buddha and the feeling of the presence of the Buddha. If that happens, when you die, you will die with the expression and feelings of the Buddha Mind presence of the Buddha. Then, because of your merits and the blessings of the Buddha, perceptions will manifest as the Buddha-field, and your future will be in peace and happiness. Then you will be equipped to serve others".

Then he wrote down a few lines, a quotation from a sutra which reveals the merits and benefits of the ''recitation of the name of Amitabha Buddha.'' Kyali Loli was disappointed because he didn't get any Dzogpa Chenpo teachings, and it broke his proud heart. But, now thinking back, I can understand how these teachings were perfect for him, and how it will be beneficial if he or anybody uses those instructions. It is important for the teacher to be fair, frank, certain, and clear, and for the disciple to be realistic, careful, tolorant, and open, as a line says:
''Having the Dzogpa Chenpo as teachings is not enough, The person needs to become Dzogpa Chenpo.''


Tulku Thondup - The practice of Dzogchen of Longchen Rabjam
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Berry » Fri May 18, 2018 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:40 pm


No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.

Indeed. _/|\_
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 18, 2018 9:36 pm

cyril wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:43 pm

Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.
I guess that depends on your definition of the worst Dzogchen practitioner. Apparently, receiving Dzogchen teachings and praticing them to the best of your abilities does not necessarily make you a Dzogchen practitioner albeit ofthe worst kind.

A couple of days before we left, Khenpo arranged for his brother, Kyali Loli, to have an interview with the Chatralwa. Loli was neither a scholar nor an accomplished meditator. Anyhow, he had already received Dzogpa Chenpo teachings and had practiced them after completion of his common practices and preliminaries. But when he met Chatralwa it was disappointing for him. It is not because he wasn't doing well with his Dzogpa Chenpo meditation, but that he wasn't even ready to start it.

On that day, one of the most important days of his life, Kyali Loli went to see Chatralwa. Loli was a very courageous person and nothing would intimidate him. So Loli explained his practice, especially concerning his Dzogpa Chenpo experiences, and he requested instructions and clarifications. Chatralwa, without making any remarks about Loli's presentation, said:
"You should first try to say with devotion the "name prayer" of Amitabha Buddha I00 times a day, then increase it to 200, and so on. One day there might be a time when whatever you are doing, you will always be united with the expression of the ''name'' of the Buddha and the feeling of the presence of the Buddha. If that happens, when you die, you will die with the expression and feelings of the Buddha Mind presence of the Buddha. Then, because of your merits and the blessings of the Buddha, perceptions will manifest as the Buddha-field, and your future will be in peace and happiness. Then you will be equipped to serve others".

Then he wrote down a few lines, a quotation from a sutra which reveals the merits and benefits of the ''recitation of the name of Amitabha Buddha.'' Kyali Loli was disappointed because he didn't get any Dzogpa Chenpo teachings, and it broke his proud heart. But, now thinking back, I can understand how these teachings were perfect for him, and how it will be beneficial if he or anybody uses those instructions. It is important for the teacher to be fair, frank, certain, and clear, and for the disciple to be realistic, careful, tolorant, and open, as a line says:
''Having the Dzogpa Chenpo as teachings is not enough, The person needs to become Dzogpa Chenpo.''


Tulku Thondup - The practice of Dzogchen of Longchen Rabjam
When an interested student does not understand the teachings of Dzogchen, this is the fault of the teacher. On the other hand, it is said very clearly that even someone who merely has devotion to Dzogchen will certainly be liberated within three lifetimes. So I wouldn't worry about Kyali Loli very much.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 18, 2018 10:46 pm

This conversation is uncannily similar to debates I've over the relative merits of different superheros.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Motova
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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Motova » Fri May 18, 2018 10:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:40 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:15 pm


One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.
Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?
No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.
That's disappointing... I wanted to make a kick ass pure land.

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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by Dan74 » Fri May 18, 2018 10:59 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:46 pm
This conversation is uncannily similar to debates I've over the relative merits of different superheros.
Go Aquaman!


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Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Fri May 18, 2018 11:56 pm

There is nothing outside of your own mind keeping you from establishing a pure land right now.
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People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

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