Enlightenment

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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:59 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:25 pm
Try reciting a billion mantras. Or sitting still for years. Even one month. Or even one day.
Try plowing fields from dawn till dusk for decades in a row to make a meager living.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:15 pm

Something tells me you haven’t. My family were farmers. Nothing in life is easy. Especially the so called path of effortlessness. If you are on a path, great. Don’t give up when it gets crushingly difficult. The big reward is nothing. Oh then you have to be a teacher. Not fun.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:29 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:15 pm
Something tells me you haven’t. My family were farmers. Nothing in life is easy. Especially the so called path of effortlessness. If you are on a path, great. Don’t give up when it gets crushingly difficult. The big reward is nothing. Oh then you have to be a teacher. Not fun.

Well, you don't HAVE to be a teacher.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:37 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:15 pm
Something tells me you haven’t. My family were farmers. Nothing in life is easy. Especially the so called path of effortlessness. If you are on a path, great. Don’t give up when it gets crushingly difficult. The big reward is nothing. Oh then you have to be a teacher. Not fun.
Yes, I haven't, and I would never do that as it would be a horrific waste of time. Other than that, what you are now saying is what I have been saying in my previous posts, for the most part. But I don't understand your view of it as some kind of martyrdom. If anything, you are happier when you don't have to worry about family, career, health, etc.

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:44 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:37 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:15 pm
Something tells me you haven’t. My family were farmers. Nothing in life is easy. Especially the so called path of effortlessness. If you are on a path, great. Don’t give up when it gets crushingly difficult. The big reward is nothing. Oh then you have to be a teacher. Not fun.
Yes, I haven't, and I would never do that as it would be a horrific waste of time. Other than that, what you are now saying is what I have been saying in my previous posts, for the most part. But I don't understand your view of it as some kind of martyrdom. If anything, you are happier when you don't have to worry about family, career, health, etc.
It’s much worse. You have to take care of everyone in the hospital, universe being the hospital, forever. The good news is you get good medicine.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

florin
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by florin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:26 am

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:31 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:08 pm


That is debatable, given that most people already put enormous effort in things that are completely meaningless, careers, riches, etc.
It’s not debatable. Every master including Buddha undergoes tremendous sacrifice and effort. But it’s not meaningless. It means everything.
It is a matter of perspective. Slaving away at a job for most of your day for the duration of your life takes more effort. And you have been doing it, or things like it, for countless eons. Buddhahood can be accomplished with an insignificant fraction of this effort.
How can it be easier than working at a job all your life? You most probably you've done budhist practice many lifetimes before this one and you are still not there. So i think in order to get to the effortless state you need to triple, quadruple your effort.
Most people don't have the capacity to practice dzogchen. And to develop capacity takes a long long time.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:15 am

florin wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:26 am
Most people don't have the capacity to practice dzogchen.

What does having the capacity entail ?
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Drenpa
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Drenpa » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:38 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:15 am
florin wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:26 am
Most people don't have the capacity to practice dzogchen.
What does having the capacity entail ?
Good question, and an important one because it can help us gauge for ourselves if we have some capacity to follow the teachings based on the words of the teachers about this, and not fall prey to our own fears and doubts about lacking something. For this reason, at least one teacher I'm aware of has given the key by which we can judge for ourselves if we have this capacity. Then maybe we can relax and not fixate on our doubt and fear and have some confidence that there really is a connection.

This key, or number one indicator of adequate capacity to follow Dzogchen teachings, is strong, persistent interest.

There are (IIRC) 10 or so capacities that are discussed, and up to 21 different levels of student depending on the teaching and in how much detail there is on this aspect. The capacities include things like diligence and a threshold intelligence necessary to understand and apply the instructions etc.

Most important though, as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche makes the point - if one has a strong interest in the teachings and approaches them seriously, then all other capacities can be developed. If this strong interest isn't in place, there's not much to be done. It is said, generally, that all who come to Dzogchen teachings and enter the path seriously, are of (generally) highest capacity and so there isn't a big deal made of the differences between capacity, intelligence etc. Although some teachings make specific predictions of realization based on capacity.

It's not so easy to "develop" genuine interest though - I've seen this personally through the years. People observed who really enter the Dzogchen path seem to be the type who had an unstoppable interest in the Dzgochen teachings. They ask questions, study, and require no conditioning or prompting to turn them towards Dzogchen - this interest seems to spring full formed from the head of Zeus and there is not much of an off switch.

You simply can't dissuade them or put them off, even if you were to try. Even here on DW through the years if you read a wide sample of threads, you can see this has happened publicly - Someone who is obviously ripe and has qualities shows up like a comet, quickly stabilize and find their way - Teacher, teaching, all. Even if they initially get the aunt sally treatment, it's like rough-housing with a pitt-bull. It only encourages them.

Others for whatever reason seem to dip in a toe, or show a bit of interest but have strong doubt or other obstacles, and many years later can still be smelling the flowers. They are around the teachings and seem to have some interest or connection, but it never goes beyond that even if there is opportunity.

Just my anecdotal observations, but I've definitely seen this sort of thing go both ways and thus can see through my own experience why Norbu Rinpoche says this when the subject of capacity arises. Someone genuinely interested can't be put off, someone without it can't be conditioned into it. Buddhism in general isn't an evangelical proposition, much less, Dzogchen.

So: May all beings with a strong and sincere interest in the Dzochen teachings realize this to be an indication of capacity, and use this most important capacity to develop all other necessary conditions so they may swiftly enter, put into practice and realize the Dzogchen teachings for the benefit of all!


Here is a thread devoted to capacity in Dzogchen, FYI.

viewtopic.php?t=9606

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:54 am

Drenpa wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:38 am
... Even if they initially get the aunt sally treatment, it's like rough-housing with a pitt-bull. It only encourages them. ...

This.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Virgo
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:22 am

Drenpa wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:38 am
...Most important though, as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche makes the point - if one has a strong interest in the teachings and approaches them seriously, then all other capacities can be developed...
Overall very good post Drenpa. Thank you for that contribution.


Kevin...

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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:44 am

florin wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:26 am
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:31 pm


It’s not debatable. Every master including Buddha undergoes tremendous sacrifice and effort. But it’s not meaningless. It means everything.
It is a matter of perspective. Slaving away at a job for most of your day for the duration of your life takes more effort. And you have been doing it, or things like it, for countless eons. Buddhahood can be accomplished with an insignificant fraction of this effort.
How can it be easier than working at a job all your life? You most probably you've done budhist practice many lifetimes before this one and you are still not there. So i think in order to get to the effortless state you need to triple, quadruple your effort.
Most people don't have the capacity to practice dzogchen. And to develop capacity takes a long long time.
It is not certain that we have done much, if any, Buddhist practice before in the first place. Any connection with a good practitioner may be enough, according to various stories I recall reading, such as being an insect squashed by mistake. Other than that, once you have received an empowerment in Vajrayana, unless you mess up your samaya during the life in which you receive that empowerment, you are practically finished within a few lifetimes of that point. Your samsaric existence up to that point has consisted of an infinity of lives of hard work and stress, not to mention all kinds of other suffering in hells etc., so they are incomparable.

But even within a single life, is it more difficult to live in a hermitage (unfortunately not really possible nowadays for most people), be mindful, and practice several hours a day with no real concerns, or is it more difficult running around in an office stressing over how to make the owner of the place richer, and then continuing along the same lines when you get back home. I would say the job is more 'difficult'.

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Vasana » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:49 am

Virgo wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:22 am
Drenpa wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:38 am
...Most important though, as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche makes the point - if one has a strong interest in the teachings and approaches them seriously, then all other capacities can be developed...
Overall very good post Drenpa. Thank you for that contribution.


Kevin...
x2
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by florin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:54 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:15 am
florin wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:26 am
Most people don't have the capacity to practice dzogchen.

What does having the capacity entail ?
In the context of dzogchen, capacity has a very specific meaning.
After the initial interest we need to have a few other things in place in order to connect in a meaningful and correct way with the transmission that we have received.First we need to develop faith in our master and understand and trust completely that the master's state and ours is identical.
If we have doubts about the master or about his teaching we need to correct that. Because to have problems of this kind it means to have samaya problems with the Buddha and Dharma.If we add to this the difficult relations we might have with our vajra kin, the trifecta of samaya problems is complete. So we need to know that we cannot connect with the knowledge of a master's transmission perfectly and beyond doubt if we have samaya problems with Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.Then the second aspect of capacity is to use our mind as it is right now to participate repeatedly in the methods of transmission in one's own private time.
Third we need to develop some kind of stable mindfulness so we are not distracted when we work with the methods of transmission. Fourth is the development of intelligence with regards to the real condition of the universe and the beings that live in it. Here we try to study reflect and meditate on materials that explain the emptiness. And finally we develop an experiential understanding of contemplation and rest in the knowledge of primordial enlightenment.

The flavour, order and number of these things may be different depending on the master you follow. But generally these aspects are indispensable in order to develop perfect capacity to work with a transmission.

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:41 pm

Sure meaningless drudgery is one of the faults of samsara. And that had to be recognized before one turns the mind toward dharma. But that doesn’t mean dharma is a vacation, because vacations are also a meaningless spoil of time and carry disappointments. Dharma is meant to be a joyful endeavor. All masters have said that. We should practice joyfully. But we have to be realistic. We are dragging around our dirty laundry and it’s stinking up the place. We are broken records and we keep droning on about the same tired complaints and it’s a serious downer for everyone, all the people we should inspire. Really the one stop shop off the shelf red light green light solution is to let go of the three concepts of inner and outer worlds and actions. Or at least to recognize when we have just started skipping and glitching between I’m here and that/them/they are there and something is going on that makes feel bad. As soon as that comes in it’s the signal, I lost my mind. Ring the bell and practice something. In the end whatever inspires you is what you should do. People like to wax philosophical about levels. I feel
Pretty strongly that I’ve learned some high levels and at the end of the talks I’ve always heard great masters tie it right back into the basic level. In fact, I spun out seeing levels within levels and seeing the meeting or blurring of end and beginning. Just speaking in layman’s terms, dharma is a forever thing. We should find some aspect that inspires and makes life feel wonderful. And we have to recall what it’s about. At least for Mahayana, it’s for others. We are knowing that our own happiness is dependent
on others no matter what their condition. We want to eliminate whatever is inside us that keeps us from being beneficial to others. That might mean accepting that we will be like Sysiphus or Xeno forever trying but never succeeding in finishing the job.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:14 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:41 pm
Sure meaningless drudgery is one of the faults of samsara. And that had to be recognized before one turns the mind toward dharma. But that doesn’t mean dharma is a vacation, because vacations are also a meaningless spoil of time and carry disappointments. Dharma is meant to be a joyful endeavor. All masters have said that. We should practice joyfully. But we have to be realistic. We are dragging around our dirty laundry and it’s stinking up the place. We are broken records and we keep droning on about the same tired complaints and it’s a serious downer for everyone, all the people we should inspire. Really the one stop shop off the shelf red light green light solution is to let go of the three concepts of inner and outer worlds and actions. Or at least to recognize when we have just started skipping and glitching between I’m here and that/them/they are there and something is going on that makes feel bad. As soon as that comes in it’s the signal, I lost my mind. Ring the bell and practice something. In the end whatever inspires you is what you should do. People like to wax philosophical about levels. I feel
Pretty strongly that I’ve learned some high levels and at the end of the talks I’ve always heard great masters tie it right back into the basic level. In fact, I spun out seeing levels within levels and seeing the meeting or blurring of end and beginning. Just speaking in layman’s terms, dharma is a forever thing. We should find some aspect that inspires and makes life feel wonderful. And we have to recall what it’s about. At least for Mahayana, it’s for others. We are knowing that our own happiness is dependent
on others no matter what their condition. We want to eliminate whatever is inside us that keeps us from being beneficial to others. That might mean accepting that we will be like Sysiphus or Xeno forever trying but never succeeding in finishing the job.
Thank you, Crazywisdom.
I think it is one of the most valuable things I have ever stumbled upon here.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:35 pm

Come to think of it I think most farmers are happy joyful people Thy take comfort in knowing they are producing food for the world. They are life producers. I know ancient farming societies often thought of their plentiful soils as heaven, not earth. When it rained they danced. It was party time. Ancient Egyptians were so enamoured of their land they wanted to come back to it and keep doing what they were doing forever. Every day was like, Who’s got it better than us? noooo body. So what changed? We have a poverty mentality. The grass is always greener, etc. No matter how much better things get they could always be better. Now you’re in dharma, you’re a walking jewel. Everything you say is music. What could be better? Who’s got it better than us?
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:35 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:14 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:41 pm
Sure meaningless drudgery is one of the faults of samsara. And that had to be recognized before one turns the mind toward dharma. But that doesn’t mean dharma is a vacation, because vacations are also a meaningless spoil of time and carry disappointments. Dharma is meant to be a joyful endeavor. All masters have said that. We should practice joyfully. But we have to be realistic. We are dragging around our dirty laundry and it’s stinking up the place. We are broken records and we keep droning on about the same tired complaints and it’s a serious downer for everyone, all the people we should inspire. Really the one stop shop off the shelf red light green light solution is to let go of the three concepts of inner and outer worlds and actions. Or at least to recognize when we have just started skipping and glitching between I’m here and that/them/they are there and something is going on that makes feel bad. As soon as that comes in it’s the signal, I lost my mind. Ring the bell and practice something. In the end whatever inspires you is what you should do. People like to wax philosophical about levels. I feel
Pretty strongly that I’ve learned some high levels and at the end of the talks I’ve always heard great masters tie it right back into the basic level. In fact, I spun out seeing levels within levels and seeing the meeting or blurring of end and beginning. Just speaking in layman’s terms, dharma is a forever thing. We should find some aspect that inspires and makes life feel wonderful. And we have to recall what it’s about. At least for Mahayana, it’s for others. We are knowing that our own happiness is dependent
on others no matter what their condition. We want to eliminate whatever is inside us that keeps us from being beneficial to others. That might mean accepting that we will be like Sysiphus or Xeno forever trying but never succeeding in finishing the job.
Thank you, Crazywisdom.
I think it is one of the most valuable things I have ever stumbled upon here.
Really? Thank you
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:49 pm

Three cheers for Crazywisdom!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:51 pm


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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:00 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:35 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:14 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:41 pm
Sure meaningless drudgery is one of the faults of samsara. And that had to be recognized before one turns the mind toward dharma. But that doesn’t mean dharma is a vacation, because vacations are also a meaningless spoil of time and carry disappointments. Dharma is meant to be a joyful endeavor. All masters have said that. We should practice joyfully. But we have to be realistic. We are dragging around our dirty laundry and it’s stinking up the place. We are broken records and we keep droning on about the same tired complaints and it’s a serious downer for everyone, all the people we should inspire. Really the one stop shop off the shelf red light green light solution is to let go of the three concepts of inner and outer worlds and actions. Or at least to recognize when we have just started skipping and glitching between I’m here and that/them/they are there and something is going on that makes feel bad. As soon as that comes in it’s the signal, I lost my mind. Ring the bell and practice something. In the end whatever inspires you is what you should do. People like to wax philosophical about levels. I feel
Pretty strongly that I’ve learned some high levels and at the end of the talks I’ve always heard great masters tie it right back into the basic level. In fact, I spun out seeing levels within levels and seeing the meeting or blurring of end and beginning. Just speaking in layman’s terms, dharma is a forever thing. We should find some aspect that inspires and makes life feel wonderful. And we have to recall what it’s about. At least for Mahayana, it’s for others. We are knowing that our own happiness is dependent
on others no matter what their condition. We want to eliminate whatever is inside us that keeps us from being beneficial to others. That might mean accepting that we will be like Sysiphus or Xeno forever trying but never succeeding in finishing the job.
Thank you, Crazywisdom.
I think it is one of the most valuable things I have ever stumbled upon here.
Really?
(Warning: very personal, and thus in all likelihood entirely irrelevant in the context of your practice, content:) I have come to realise that all differentiating between higher and lower (or faster and slower, etc.) practices is, at least within the scope of what our Vajrayana teachers actually teach us, for many people I know insofar as I can tell and most certainly for me, a dangerous obstacle more than anything else. And as far as goals of one's practice go, whether short-term or ultimate, the only one that does not quickly ruin my practice is practising for others' happiness. Regarding the endlessness of the task: Patience and humility can hardly be overrated. "The only wisdom we can hope to acquire / Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless."
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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